Getting down and dirty is where the rubber meets the road ...

[dkm]

I suspect that there is a fundamental misunderstanding or misinterpretation on my part of how or what you are defining as a "faster fractal" and a "trading fractal", how the faster fractal is constructed from the 10 cases and how the trading fractal is constructed from three faster fractals.

 

[jack hershey]

Quote from dkm:

ES 20100503 carry over

We all know there are 6 lines in the carryover and there is a degapping consideration.

the 6 lines are three pairs of RTL's and LTL's.

One pair is the fast fractal the sexond pair is the trading fractal and the third pair is the slow fractal.

there are reasons for these three being in use that relate directly to the non stionanrity of the markets.

we always need to know when the rule of the parallelogram is rching a limit since this AFFECTS the formations and completions of the pattern.

When we started the thread we were applying SCT to k200 and we wanted to ramp up to getting the acceleration, expansion and fanning applications down cold for the k200. these thre aspects bring home the extent of nonstationarity in the k200 instrument.

A lot of interjections have been made to make sure the basics are in hand for various people.

This chart shows that the three fractals are not being carried over as yet.

If a person does 10 consecutive days as drills that include the three levels and he logs the bar by bar mutations of forming bars, then he has reached the starting point for using M of MADA in SCT trading. the ADA then comes into the picture since ADA depends upon the data set from M being match to an invariant one to one relation of an element in the Analysis finite set. Constructing the Analysis finite set in the mind is done with drills already presented.

To not do three nestd fractals in the carryyover is a consequence of not understanding why the nesting on either side of the trading fractal has importance. I have used a green bookmark to illustrate the reasons for three concurrent fractals.

There is another important thing involved.

As a person does MADA he is thinking as time passes. By being in the market and doing Hold and Reversal as the D of MADA, he is very coherent as a result that he knows that he knows all of the time.

There is no drawdown nor losing trade aspect of MADA in any of the applications of PEP. Elsewhere there are common explanations as to why drawdowns and losing trades are part of any trader's experience and practise of bonafide approaches; they say it just comes whith the business. See GS testimony and concurrent standup comedy (actually sitdown comedy) in the Senate hearings.

As a very coherent SCT trader trades he sees time and time again that his chosen trading fractal is something he chose and other things are going on. As he winds his way to being in the groove all of the time he feels the support, comfort and confidence of knowing that he knows all the time.

What seems to be apparent is that one's mind encourages better and better effectivenss and efficiency. Thus it is natural to add more and more leading indicators to the snesing function of the routine. That appeared as an aspect of the log that was posted. we also saw how the volume pane annotation clarified the order of events of the pattern on the three interlocked fractal levels.

In the past we saw one dicplay of the EMwave pc where coherence increased by 44 stepps on one display as a person settled into trading.

So over time a trader moves his effectiveness and efficiency to better and better levels as he becomes highly coherent in following the order of events of the market.

In this thread for a while I kept stepping up the trading level with critiques and drills. This genreation of younger people is the "sandwich generation" meaning they are still moslty getting sandwiches made for them when the get hungry; they do not make their own sandwiches but experct sandwiches to be handed to them. Theirr brains are soft it turns out as a consequence of their neediness and lack of doing work. the sanate hearing on the financial indusrty show a lot of slippery guys who are usally just feeding off the flow of capital going through their nets. No mental integrity was required.

Here effectiveness and efficiency provide wealth building alternatives based on how the mind "seeks" more pieces to fold into the minds differentiation. Carving all turns can simply double the effectiveness as we will find out. the mind asks and it get the solutions to fold into the developing inference.

 

[dkm]

Quote from jack hershey:


One pair is the fast fractal the sexond pair is the trading fractal and the third pair is the slow fractal.

there are reasons for these three being in use that relate directly to the non stionanrity of the markets......

When we started the thread we were applying SCT to k200 and we wanted to ramp up to getting the acceleration, expansion and fanning applications down cold for the k200. these thre aspects bring home the extent of nonstationarity in the k200 instrument.

A lot of interjections have been made to make sure the basics are in hand for various people.

This chart shows that the three fractals are not being carried over as yet....

To not do three nestd fractals in the carryyover is a consequence of not understanding why the nesting on either side of the trading fractal has importance. I have used a green bookmark to illustrate the reasons for three concurrent fractals.

I am confident that I understand the importance of the three nesting fractals. It is my inability to understand how you construct each of the three fractal levels that prevents me from drawing them in a consistent manner.

My apologies for creating a distraction from k200.

 

[jack hershey]

Quote from frenchfry:

Enclosed please find my attempt to build traverses and channels from tapes. One area in that chart where I was not 100% sure is the end where I highlighted it with a blue rectangle.

Even though I drew the magenta channel I suspect that it is not the real channel but something even slower. Maybe somebody can give me some hints?

Thanks

the steeper magenta was the first slow channel that was possible.

Unfortuneately the FTT's and NEW FTT's fell off the DKM 107 8 illustration. That can happen.

Market PACE is usually on charts these days and this chart does not have that either.

The point 3 of the magenta original slow fractal began the short trading fractal which continued for the better part of the day and had two NEW FTT's as part of it's exisitance. This is the third move in the slow fractal and this move is called a trading fractal move.

As you saw their were expansions during the full development of this trading fractal movement. One aspect of that was the cause of where the final magenta RTL wound up.

By having your work posted many many people do get to see the three trading fractals on ES and for some of your annotations there is some sub fast fractal annotation during the DU and VDU PACE shown by volume. this is called fractal jumping. The blue baox area has some sub flaover too.

the green bookmarks also fell off the DKM 107 8 chart in the area of the blue box region. The green bookmarks denoted how the NEW FTT's subsequently came into being on the last move of the slow fractal.

 

[jack hershey]

Quote from dkm:

Assuming the latter.

Okay, you are on the way with this work.

If you use French Fry's slow magenta fractal annotation on your carryover, etc, you see how the clean page 4 is applied to getting the new slow fractal inplace as the TF's progress,

also as a note, put in a short line to show the ve's when they occur. you can put in the RTL for TF's as soon as the pt3 occurs instead of waiting. The advantage is that the "container for the TF FTT is then built BEFORE the FTT occurs or the BO of the RTL after the FTT occurs.

While the k200/DAX postings have dwindled, all this stuff we are doing on the ES applies.

What seems to be prevailing is a lot of good attention to detail.

That is why I brought up fractal jumping to the sub fractal of the fast as volume slips into DU and VDU volume.

As we see the volume is unfortuneately anchored to an axis. By using a searate pane for volume relationships, you get the advantage of keeping the dom and non dom in the picture for each of the nested fractal patterns. the way to ease the drawing of the interrelationship is to just let the faster lines cross the slower lines. It becomes very apparent why the four volume moves are required to cover the three price annotation moves.

This is another of the giant AHA's of trading the markets. I rate it as a religious expereince when it gets to the catecism level.

Again, as an aside, it is fun to watch the GS hearings where fabulous fab played the "end man role" and everyone began so piously using the lawyer training strategy of fumbling the large three ring binder. (all lawyers were flipping furiously in the back rows....lol... You notice NO ONE" looked but the queried until the unravelling started, then they all kept the 3 ring tabs flipping.

The secondary lawyer strategy agreed to was :we didn't know at the time". In the nested fractal os PEP and its apps, this is known as "horseshit", since in out style of trading "you always know you know".

This is becoming apparent on the posted charts. By having the three fractal boundaries rolling along and projected into the future, it becomes more and more obvious why predicting is not a requirement of always taking the market's offer. Thus "CONTEXT' is always known and the bookmarking always puts on the table the "completion" limitations of the slope of the forming patterns ON ALL THREE NESTED FRACTALS.

treading, then becomes a consequence of matching ellements of finite sets of each part of MADA by just going on down the MADA cycle as each cycle of MADA is necessitated and LOGGED to give you referent rows as bar formation mutations occur.

It looks like we are arriving at the point where the mind begins to ask to add leading inference from other display panes.

"Trading is easy" is an expression of a differentiated mind. As a persopn senses and his data set gives "context" always, it is like climbing from plteau level to plateau level the view is getting more inclusive and there is a lot to be seen and admired. The market is all there to be seen if you have the vantage points.

Adding leading panes to trading is like reaching for binoculars to be able to pick the better exploratory trail up ahead. One thing I liked about getting father and farther North while exploring was picking a path to get to locations where decisions could be made. The land was frozen and just the surface thawed in best summer weather. Trees couldn't make it anymore; glaciers were colored according to pressure; Streams were colored according to the refraction of suspended mineral surfaces eroded by glacier movement pressures. when Dahl sheep do not move off, it is a sign that they ID more with the pack llamas than the packers doing the exploration.

We have to add more panes judiciciously so as to not have extra weight to pack; we need to get additional milage out of our tools and make our point to point efforts most worthwhile.

Questions are what the mind creates to do the infill of sparsely populated areas of our differentiation.

things are beginning to roll in this thread. I appreciate the good work everyone is doing. Great examples of forging ahead doing drills.

 

[jack hershey]

Quote from dkm:

I presume that your comment regarding multicharts is a reference to me looking at the 15 min. I did this assuming that the criteria for drawing tapes should be valid regardless of timeframe. However, I will make no further use or reference to any timeframe other than the 5 min.

Within the limitation of transference using only text, I thought that I was applying the 10 cases correctly in order to draw faster fractal rtl's from the ftt/FTT that was agreed at bar 4. Following bar 4 the only bar that an internal is bar 9. This I considered to be combined with bar 8, and fanned the rtl accordingly. You are now saying that an FTT (uppercase) exists at bar 10. Please explain where and how I have missed the non dom faster fractal between bar 4 and bar 10.

The attached chart is an attempt to take the annotations further back into 4/29 where you suggest that I need to consider context. I fail to see how this would lead me to see an FTT at bar 10.

"The objective is to use the five minute chart correctly and consistently."

I agree. This is my single objective.

I did a follow up for you to explain the "unseen" as a consequence of your proffered charting and your persistent use of your work after I corrected it.

Here you "see" the formerly "unseen" because I have put in the book mark to deal more precisely with what was missing or unseen specifically.

as a person who trades with "unconscious competence" gained through 50 some years of living the markets is part of my being, I am sort of Nike oreinted at this point.

We aren't debating; I just went through getting some precision in the picture so I could "cancel" as a consequence of the green bookmark.

You are dong a good job; I am supporting your efforts.

At some point mostly everyone gets on the same page.

Basic MADA has basic rules for doing each part. This affords "sufficient" data sets and everything ends happily ever after.

I do not care where anyone places me with a given chart limited context nor the extent of info provided. I do not need much info to do expert trading with any amount of capital to make that capital extract the market's offer. It is just unbelievable in the way it rolls on out. WHO CARES?

We all just sit around and laugh at the greatness of the opportunity that is flowing to US from those with the big money and the way they screw off all the time.

Attached is a rough out of the particulars on the A and C that I suggested to you before to move getting in the groove and going on down the road.

 

[rainman2]

This is how I debrief the carryover every night.Right or wrong, its a great drill.

 

[jack hershey]

Quote from dkm:

I suspect that there is a fundamental misunderstanding or misinterpretation on my part of how or what you are defining as a "faster fractal" and a "trading fractal", how the faster fractal is constructed from the 10 cases and how the trading fractal is constructed from three faster fractals.

Trading language is like music language and engineering and architectural language. It is done with conventional symbols and not with words in sentences and paragraphs.

PEP uses a parallelogram. A parallelogram has four sides. Two are vertical.

we use binary vectors as the PM. PM means parametric measure.

H1 and H@ compricse the TOTAL HS. HS means hypothesis set.

PARA is present in manywords that have to do with PEP. PEP is a PARAdigm.

There is no interpretation in critical thinking when using the theorie associated with thinking and critical thinking.

The ftt or FTT is a part of the principles involved that emerge from the sparse yet comprehensive foundation and its building blocks.

The cases emerged as a consequence of a concept in non probabilistic information theory.

Why the green book marks?

We have then as a consequence of binary vectors. Parallelograms come from binary vectors.

The pragmatic matter of making money exhibits a characteristic we wish to take advantage of. The characterisitc is a nice clean uncomplicated item. Making money is NOT a continuous function by its nature. Money doesn't work if it is done with continuous functions.

Jack proved this with his beans and his beanstalking. Beans are not continuous. The fart, a bean derivative, is continuous down to the molecular level and sub molecular level but at some point smell is no longer measured. Beans are fractal it turns out. Refried beans get closer to being continuous functionaries. BUT.....


we can work all the way down to market granularity to make money. so we do with our leading indicators.

when it comes to the mind, we work with THINKING since that is what the mind does. we accomodate the mind's operation first and formost.

This is why NO interpretation is ever on the table.

We see that fractal jumping is being done by several people here. they do not use the pattern in a P, V manner simply because they have inferences that do not have an organizing component that is developed to afford them differentiation of their inference according to the order of events.

There are many many people who are gibberish oriented. they have a big portion of their minds where their mind's operators put a lot of things in their long term memory under "gibberish". They are good at scrambling information into mud. It is irreversable.

The basic pattern is in a parallelogram. This means things happen within the parallelogram and "on" the parallelogram. We make money through price change.

I call price change "continuation" as long as it is a binary vector of a given "kind" there are two "kinds". Money cannot be made with any unkindly price change. Any unkindly change is NOT continuation. Hypothesiswise this is called H2.

MADA is a routine that affords a trader the ability to extract all of the offer. as you have communuicated, you sometimes remain on the wrong side of the market and during these periods of "holding", you have capital declines in realized events. This is an ADA symptom and the cause, so far determined is the M part of the routine.

I chalk it up to your not taking data sets in M before you do ADA.

You feel you interpret the M rules. I would regard this as a process that involves Q's coming up and you using other than the three operators, spatial, patterns, and movement, to deal with the questions. If a person just sticks to matching inference to sensing, then he is onloy using spatial, pattern (formation) and movement mental operators.

doing trades is using a platform to do one of five things: wiat, hold, reverse, enter or exit. They all come from D and are carried out in the Action.

Interpreting is an activity NOT associated with watching markets. It is an activity of taking information and modifying the information.

One that we dealt with was you doing the LTL before the RTL which was omitting the trend binary vector as determined on the right side of the market.

Another interpretation was how you usied an OB and showed you are NOT neutral biased nor are you using the cases in M of MADA.

Interpretation as to fractals within fractals is the topic you introduced. This is a logic consideration and logic is only considered during design of systems usually. you may be doing system design as part of doing the MADA routine which is limited to just carrying on trading.

Doing design while doing trading is unusual.

we sorted thefractals into a hierarchy which is unchanging for most people; they keep the hierarchy straight fairly simply. I suppose you do not see the pattrns of each fractal as separate and on equal footing. Probably you do not regard as an "absolute" principle that the pattern on each fractal has to complete before a new pattern can commence.

what happens mostly to people is that they have voids in their differentiation. when their mind asks to complete the differentiation , they simply make upsomething convenient instead of turning on their "critical thinking machine" To carryout thinkiing according to the rules of coherent rational thought. Often "beliefs" from other walks of life are simply interjected as the "only" way it can be.

we saw three choices offered for handling bar 4. We did something different than those choices, it turned out. The choices come from interpretations. The answer comes from rules of M of MADA. Interpretation involves taking A and B and getting C which is new and before ever seen.

During MADA nothing new ever happens. If the data set is A and B, the answer is AB an alrady present element that can be matched to an element of Analysis an already complete finite set of Analysis.

A fast fractal is built from bars and cases; it is a parallelogram which has points 1, 2, 3, and an ftt at the minumum. The fast fractal can be adjusted with acceleration, expansion and fanning. An unkindly thing can happen during this pattern growth. The bookmark assures that the pattern completes in an inkind way.

All these facets are borderline cases of the parallelogram.

there isn't any interpretation for this. If titerpretation is going on it is a mind building related activity. That being the case, then the thinker, keeps cognizant of his thinking and what he is doing.

Using PEP and its applications is pragmatic money making segment by segment.

Interpretation is an activity only related to making memory (inference) adjustments (not additions) in the mind. Interpretation is rewiring so to speak. Instead use the wiring available or be looking for voids. voids are filled by doing drills to build the mind with new inference (converting short term memory into long term memory by paralleling neuro pathways to a critical number of parallel paths. Later while slepping the mind reinforces the synaptic conectiviety in the neuropathways.

 

[jack hershey]

Quote from rainman2:

This is how I debrief the carryover every night.Right or wrong, its a great drill.

THIS IS THE METHOD.

Three frctal lelvels,

status of pattern in each fractal

You can state what the next element is in the order of events of each fractal.

Since you have done drills on the log for all fractals though the entire order of events many times as a drill, it is possible to rough out the upcoming log for the next day (including bookmarking potential spots.

Look at my follow up on traderzones' pottery prowess recently. I simply listed the next 17teen tradable events and the tining within 5 to 7 minutes of the shift in overall market sentiment the next day.

the iillustration shows with brevity the carry over and the next events after carry over for the next day.

Super post. thanks so much.

 

[SK0]

I have tried to do quick carry over with dkm's chart. But it seems difficult to construct a carry-over trading fractal container with the prior day's bars available on the chart.