Getting down and dirty is where the rubber meets the road ...
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Quote from SK0:
Jack, kindly refer to the bold, red-color sentences in above post shown on page 10. It is about using PRV.
You have mentioned them, similarly, numerous times in the past. I guess I know what you mean to compare PRV to prior completed volume bar, ie the 12 seconds stuff etc. But comparing the closing gap of PRV to forming volume bar, surges and stalls, price bar mutation... I am largely clueless for a long time. Where is the connection? When is the critical time to pay attention on PRV? Should we merely need to know increasing/decreasing, or pace level, or peak/trough in volume, and how?
Also, does PRV link to price bar volatility and overlap with prior price bar vs pace look-up table which you covered in another post? Do we have to memorize the volatility values and overlap ratio for each pace level? What if the volatility of a bar and overlap with prior bar turn out falling outside the heavily populated gaussian zones in the look-up table? Apparently, knowing higher pace leads to higher bar volatility and lower bar overlap is not sufficient.
I know I am asking lousy questions. But I have to ask now, somehow, before you run too far ahead.
So far, the content in this thread has been extremely helpful. Thank you very much.
I'll go through these Q's along with reasons for the weekly report coming from FF and all the others who are moving forward. Further, I will use the log asked about to tie all of these things together.
The volunteered weekly progress report as I see what happened including pm's to me.
We moved from a scratch start to having the essentials of using critical thinking to build a foundation. This is great progress.
as we saw this made making money in profit segments something that occurs rather infrequently during the day. This was because most of the time is a relaxed situation and the market is simply filling in the containers as the future comes into the present.
We do not have to concentrate of use stops for any reason. The three tools of acceleration, expansion and fanning are iterative refinements that keep the pattern flowing on all levels. A green bookmark came into the picture to facilitate wash trades, if any.
As SKO says this process of learning to build the mind can involve a lot of work and intiative in a critical thinking modus.
going from a scratch start the following was accomplished in the order listed as a response to a order suggested.
1, a display was held to and all things done were done manually.
2. yellow boxes appeared as a statement of learning most of the cases. Later other cases were added so all cases are on the table.
3. Annotating price on the fast fractal was done and slowly some omissions were picked up upon. The vocabulary got refined and translation finally appeared to describe the progress of price.
4. drills were recognized as the modus for getting long term memory installed to build inference itno something useful.
5. reading the drills was done.
6. the focus on doing work was related to wants more than needs but needs as a consideration was considered.
7. the use of time for doing drills was recognized as a progression of tasks.
8. tasks were added to the lifestyle of the family and a job.
9. a realization of the way work is done to gain facility in trading was made conscious.
10. A ranking of the combined priorities for the family, the job and the work of building the mind was determined. the starting point for bcominga competent trader was reached.
11. there was a significant recognition of what was done yesterday was not necessarily going to become available as "today" unfolds. But it was possible to know that some things were available and that they could be built upon. This use of a limited established inference was multiplied as every day passed.
12. It was recognized that there is a limit as to how far into the night a person could go in accomplishing pseudo drills based upon wants over needs.
13. question after question arose and a didactic was not entered into to deal with the questions (except as statements of status reports by pm; that is still under consideration as a possibility.
14, input was continually accepted and PROCESSED to move ahead in the specific space built by the learner. It is a very organized and defined space.
15. At some point volume reentered the picture and it was recognized that there is a possible relationship of volume and price. Getting a start on price is preceding getting a handle on volume which will lead to getting a handle on the pattern.
16. there is a tacit recognition of the pattern and lickily the focus is on the beginning of the pattern and how it involves 2 volume moves for one price move. the period from FTT to BO of RTL has become a conscious consideration that is skimmed over at this point.
As you see, there is a foundation being built and the concept of building blocks is in play. aha's are happening and the process is primarily focussed on details rather than concepts. we are stil in a vertical orientation and the horizontal nature of the markets is still counterintuitive.
the pace of activity here is continually picking up for all levels of moving forward. For FF, he feels like the effort so far compared to the prior two years of progress for mim. My measure of that comparison is that it a spectacular as a progression. So we will knock off another two years this week.
Now we combine this with the SKO Q's and the log request.
We moved from a scratch start to having the essentials of using critical thinking to build a foundation. This is great progress.
as we saw this made making money in profit segments something that occurs rather infrequently during the day. This was because most of the time is a relaxed situation and the market is simply filling in the containers as the future comes into the present.
We do not have to concentrate of use stops for any reason. The three tools of acceleration, expansion and fanning are iterative refinements that keep the pattern flowing on all levels. A green bookmark came into the picture to facilitate wash trades, if any.
As SKO says this process of learning to build the mind can involve a lot of work and intiative in a critical thinking modus.
going from a scratch start the following was accomplished in the order listed as a response to a order suggested.
1, a display was held to and all things done were done manually.
2. yellow boxes appeared as a statement of learning most of the cases. Later other cases were added so all cases are on the table.
3. Annotating price on the fast fractal was done and slowly some omissions were picked up upon. The vocabulary got refined and translation finally appeared to describe the progress of price.
4. drills were recognized as the modus for getting long term memory installed to build inference itno something useful.
5. reading the drills was done.
6. the focus on doing work was related to wants more than needs but needs as a consideration was considered.
7. the use of time for doing drills was recognized as a progression of tasks.
8. tasks were added to the lifestyle of the family and a job.
9. a realization of the way work is done to gain facility in trading was made conscious.
10. A ranking of the combined priorities for the family, the job and the work of building the mind was determined. the starting point for bcominga competent trader was reached.
11. there was a significant recognition of what was done yesterday was not necessarily going to become available as "today" unfolds. But it was possible to know that some things were available and that they could be built upon. This use of a limited established inference was multiplied as every day passed.
12. It was recognized that there is a limit as to how far into the night a person could go in accomplishing pseudo drills based upon wants over needs.
13. question after question arose and a didactic was not entered into to deal with the questions (except as statements of status reports by pm; that is still under consideration as a possibility.
14, input was continually accepted and PROCESSED to move ahead in the specific space built by the learner. It is a very organized and defined space.
15. At some point volume reentered the picture and it was recognized that there is a possible relationship of volume and price. Getting a start on price is preceding getting a handle on volume which will lead to getting a handle on the pattern.
16. there is a tacit recognition of the pattern and lickily the focus is on the beginning of the pattern and how it involves 2 volume moves for one price move. the period from FTT to BO of RTL has become a conscious consideration that is skimmed over at this point.
As you see, there is a foundation being built and the concept of building blocks is in play. aha's are happening and the process is primarily focussed on details rather than concepts. we are stil in a vertical orientation and the horizontal nature of the markets is still counterintuitive.
the pace of activity here is continually picking up for all levels of moving forward. For FF, he feels like the effort so far compared to the prior two years of progress for mim. My measure of that comparison is that it a spectacular as a progression. So we will knock off another two years this week.
Now we combine this with the SKO Q's and the log request.
The log request is what I feel is normal in this day and age. It is where SKO's answers ly.
A person becoming a trader, at some point, converts just watching and "concentrating" to an alternative setting of focus.
It is a process of "getting organized" that comes into every endeavor. A classic example is trating trading as a business and businesses generate records of the progress of the business. Accounting is the more or less trite part of the business. It is mearlet one or two parts of 12 or so parts of the BUSINESS PLAN.
RESTAURANTS HAVE MENUS, EMPLOYEES AND A METHOD OF OPERATING.
THERE IS LOCATION, LOCATION AND LOCATION, too
MADA is in place and will begin to be done when we move to real time.
Each of the four parts will have rules to follow.
M of MADA was the focus when we begun from scratch and wnet backwards to find the cases and hoe transaltion and peaks and troughs were fit into a pattern. That got us to the beginning point which is now history and missed by most people in ET.
To best take the market's offer a context is established and the offer is taken as the market unfolds. Bar numbers are the reference point in time for this trading activity.
Making money proceeds smoothly as bars form and collect during a trend of price. trends follow the pattern.
Here I will build a portrait log for your use.
In the middle is the bar column and to its right is a vernier column for the sceonds of the bar as they count down to zero.
There are 81 bars and 300 seconds per bar. this is for the timing of the market. as on a clock we have a five minute hand and a second hand whereone lap is 300 seconds. This is our world in terms of time.
we deal with reasoning by having MADA. Four finite sets. We do not memorize per se but we build inference which is from long term memory and which is placed in short term memory where we work with sensing as time passes.
MADA is related to the clock we use in the middle of the log; it is the other axis of the log.
waht we do is build a context by completing row after row. we so not do concentration or losingconcentratiion. We do a simple simple routine.
the second column is our first entry and after that we note what we sensed and make it a written context.
On the left is the index (ES) on the right is its leading index (YM). This is four columns
For each change of either ES or YM we do a MADA row..
The green sentence is the essence of PEP and its applications. Cases are entered in these two columns. This is knowing that you know.
Three columns deal with the three nested fracatls and they appear from left to right going from fastest to slowest. they add to the log the order of events of the patterns in each fractal.
as you recognize we need to interpose a column for peaks and troughs. or something else volume oriented. The something else is the context where the volume is doing its thing. PACE value is what is called "sufficient". I put the volume column to the left of the trhee fractal pattern columns.
By now we have avocabulary for the columns. It is over 100 words or symbols for words or context.
I put a blank row between bars. The group of rows forming a bar is 5 to 10 rows, one for each MADA lap. We have 8 of the 12 columns.
What else is needed? Nothing really but I do have four more columns devoted to leading indicators of the columns that are discussed above.
as you see these 8 columns allow be to trade on volume signals related to the order of events of the three fractals. I write in the fractals what I am looking for at about the row it will occur. I write in "looking for" on front of the next item in the order of events.
at this point it is important to make a simple point.
"what separates the OODA trader from the MADA trader is how the mind is used."
In this thread both views were expressed. MADA focuses on how the market offer unfolds in an order of events. Perception is based on sensing (10%) and what is already in the mind in an organized body of long term memory (90%).
There is a subject called risk management. it is part of OODA by necessity. OODA requires concentration on the bet made and the behavioral actions done to protect the bet. Here a person concentrates as his stop is hit and he loses capital. The mind is used to bet and then concentrate. This engenders rational emotions of anxiety, fear and anger.
Logging is the essential activity of doing MADA wherby inference is summoned from the mind to match what is sensed and that result is logged to create row upon row that forms the context of the order of events.
Let us turn to SKO's questions.
A person becoming a trader, at some point, converts just watching and "concentrating" to an alternative setting of focus.
It is a process of "getting organized" that comes into every endeavor. A classic example is trating trading as a business and businesses generate records of the progress of the business. Accounting is the more or less trite part of the business. It is mearlet one or two parts of 12 or so parts of the BUSINESS PLAN.
RESTAURANTS HAVE MENUS, EMPLOYEES AND A METHOD OF OPERATING.
THERE IS LOCATION, LOCATION AND LOCATION, too
MADA is in place and will begin to be done when we move to real time.
Each of the four parts will have rules to follow.
M of MADA was the focus when we begun from scratch and wnet backwards to find the cases and hoe transaltion and peaks and troughs were fit into a pattern. That got us to the beginning point which is now history and missed by most people in ET.
To best take the market's offer a context is established and the offer is taken as the market unfolds. Bar numbers are the reference point in time for this trading activity.
Making money proceeds smoothly as bars form and collect during a trend of price. trends follow the pattern.
Here I will build a portrait log for your use.
In the middle is the bar column and to its right is a vernier column for the sceonds of the bar as they count down to zero.
There are 81 bars and 300 seconds per bar. this is for the timing of the market. as on a clock we have a five minute hand and a second hand whereone lap is 300 seconds. This is our world in terms of time.
we deal with reasoning by having MADA. Four finite sets. We do not memorize per se but we build inference which is from long term memory and which is placed in short term memory where we work with sensing as time passes.
MADA is related to the clock we use in the middle of the log; it is the other axis of the log.
waht we do is build a context by completing row after row. we so not do concentration or losingconcentratiion. We do a simple simple routine.
the second column is our first entry and after that we note what we sensed and make it a written context.
On the left is the index (ES) on the right is its leading index (YM). This is four columns
For each change of either ES or YM we do a MADA row..
The green sentence is the essence of PEP and its applications. Cases are entered in these two columns. This is knowing that you know.
Three columns deal with the three nested fracatls and they appear from left to right going from fastest to slowest. they add to the log the order of events of the patterns in each fractal.
as you recognize we need to interpose a column for peaks and troughs. or something else volume oriented. The something else is the context where the volume is doing its thing. PACE value is what is called "sufficient". I put the volume column to the left of the trhee fractal pattern columns.
By now we have avocabulary for the columns. It is over 100 words or symbols for words or context.
I put a blank row between bars. The group of rows forming a bar is 5 to 10 rows, one for each MADA lap. We have 8 of the 12 columns.
What else is needed? Nothing really but I do have four more columns devoted to leading indicators of the columns that are discussed above.
as you see these 8 columns allow be to trade on volume signals related to the order of events of the three fractals. I write in the fractals what I am looking for at about the row it will occur. I write in "looking for" on front of the next item in the order of events.
at this point it is important to make a simple point.
"what separates the OODA trader from the MADA trader is how the mind is used."
In this thread both views were expressed. MADA focuses on how the market offer unfolds in an order of events. Perception is based on sensing (10%) and what is already in the mind in an organized body of long term memory (90%).
There is a subject called risk management. it is part of OODA by necessity. OODA requires concentration on the bet made and the behavioral actions done to protect the bet. Here a person concentrates as his stop is hit and he loses capital. The mind is used to bet and then concentrate. This engenders rational emotions of anxiety, fear and anger.
Logging is the essential activity of doing MADA wherby inference is summoned from the mind to match what is sensed and that result is logged to create row upon row that forms the context of the order of events.
Let us turn to SKO's questions.
Quote from SK0:
Jack, kindly refer to the bold, red-color sentences in above post shown on page 10. It is about using PRV.
You have mentioned them, similarly, numerous times in the past. I guess I know what you mean to compare PRV to prior completed volume bar, ie the 12 seconds stuff etc. But comparing the closing gap of PRV to forming volume bar, surges and stalls, price bar mutation... I am largely clueless for a long time. Where is the connection?
In the log, the connection is made with the four rightmost columns. The case columns are the vernier for these columns.
PRV defines which of the HS hypotheses are at play: H1 or H2. Most rows of the log give an H1 or H2 context which is very pertinent. The HS is trend oriented and PEP is trend following in the market sense and NOT in the Covel "Trend Following" written collection of gleening interviews sense.
this allows a person to build a context upon the moves within the patterns of the three fracatals.
This gives the "know that you know context"
your subsequent questions fleash this out. what all the questions represent is the mind asking for more long term memory elements to "fill in " some spaces in between what is already built. This series is called "putting the pieces together" once the drills do actually do this are being done.
Before in this thread those drills were introduced. They get to be done as a consequence of doing the M of MADA on the 10 days prior to the Present. This occurred early in the thread as a prep effort to get to know the k200 and undrstand the medium and long trem context.
When is the critical time to pay attention on PRV?
as you fill in the volume colume on the log each lap of MADA. MADA is a routine that formalizes trading to make money. It is done over and over and has an interesting feature. It eliminates the freak out trading that is a consequence of continued concentration on the market. not having a routine is where the 10,000 hours myth originated. OODA also lacks this feature of MADA. The four steps end with an action that is the consequence of a deductive conclusion. MADA is a series of one to one finite set element matchings that are invariant. the consequence in reasoning and logic terms is called "closure". After closure is reached, then a person is free to repeat the routine.
As you tell us you do not use the routine as a habit but instead you look for significant things to help you get the job done. I am suggesting a simpler alternative that keep you in the better place for extracting segments of profits. that is doing a routine which include volume just before you note the order of events unfolding on three nested fractals.
My viewpoint can become rather persuasive to some people. The featureof closure is what makes trading like driving a car. It is the mechanism that most leads to coherence on the EMwave pc meter.closure is like the end of the recitation of a mantra cycle. It affords you a rock solid moment from which you embark to take another MADA llap. the mind is a terrific thing and making use of it is a terrific experience which I encourage.
Should we merely need to know increasing/decreasing, or pace level, or peak/trough in volume?
we track the process of movement by these variables you mention. Our measure is a binary vector that gives certainty. Dominant and non dominant comes from volume and it is associated with the price moves in the order of events of the nested fractals where the pattern onfolds. As you see all the time the moves in various fractals are in a context that is relatively based and not absolutely based. Look at the peaks and troughs of three concurrent fractals. They are nested within one another and they are relative within each fractal.
Awakening to these things is a process where the consciousness comes from an unconsciousness. Once you discover what nesting means, you get to follow the dominant and nondominant moves of each fractal and see how relativiety works.
As the years pass I keepencouraging people to do routines and get way from the "concentration (freakout)" you see all over ET in many many threads. Examine PA trading in its many forms. It lacks a routine because donimance and non dominance cannot be ascertained. Many people use three price charts of different durations as a substitute for using volume to determine sentiment and dominance More often than not they are bushwacked as they concentrate and not sense what the market is doing. The other word or phrase is called discipline and following the trading betting plan. there is no way to build inference or differentiation in a betting and concentrating OODA methodology. It is by definition incoherent and much much research have verified this emotioal trait that is persistent. (fear anxiety and anger.) there are many client patient examples where the treatment regimes are made public.
Most all of market movement is counterintuitive. The triad nature of trends the patternn) is counterintuitive to an up/down orientation. the majority do not control markets; the minority does. Here we are finding all of this out.
and how?
The MADA routine is how. the log shows row by row the order of ecents. you foolw othe relative patterns on the three fractals. As you will now begin to see there are peaks and sub peaks and each applied to a differnt pattern on different fractals. the same is true for troughs. Troughs occur at high altitude for some troughs. Other lowest trough continue to be lower as the PACE lessens. In the pm the troughs may be higher and higher as PACE quickens. All of this is putting the pieces together.
At some point you will become familiar with IBGS's. Interbar means within a five minute bar, the YM often reveals this for ES trading. Peaks and troughs are rounded as in Gaussian functions. Shifting from one Gaussian to another also occurs.
Also, does PRV link to price bar volatility and overlap with prior price bar vs pace look-up table which you covered in another post?
Yes, this is wheresomeof the relativity comes from the other source is PACE change. Here we are focussing closely on filling in gaps in your differentiation. your mind is simply asking for addition peices of inference to stick in between what you know, Most of this happens while you sleep and consequently you have aha's and sometimes AHA's or a religious experience.
why don't some people have these happening frequently and in great degree? They have nothing in their minds to create what you are creating. In ET this has been described with a lot of vocabulary words by people who recognize their dillema or dillemas. getting to a dilema is the process of going out on a limg and expecting the lind to function as a trunk of a learning tree. you see other branche and on way to get to them since you cannot erase a trip from A to B in the mind.
Do we have to memorize the volatility values and overlap ratio for each pace level?
No certainly not. Think of it as where you live. you can look at the mountains in any direction and figure out where you are. By having done the 3D drill to create the Excel you see the nature of the peaks and troughs and you recognize the way the ridge of means noves on the 3 de charts. An ATS uses this to "differentiate" signals so that only the proper set is in used for a given making money strategy. The shells of the ATS are how one is enabled to move to optimum of effectiveness and efficiency. This is definitely not done with a stat approach because, in the end just "mud" is created as shown by the CW performance of the industry.
What if the volatility of a bar and overlap with prior bar turn out falling outside the heavily populated gaussian zones in the look-up table?
this is a quick recognization of "News". This happened to me on 9/11 using the Chicago based data. I literally shouted to Liz to turn on the TV. For SCT traders, taking the ride is what is at hand. One FEB a while back at the end of the month there was an 89 point ride over a few hours.
One of the presenters from Barron's shows a slide of a stock; it clearly shows an impeding piece of News. the slide is Enron before the News broke. He joked with my reponse to the slide before he showed the next slide. Enron was leaving its populated zone.
Apparently, knowing higher pace leads to higher bar volatility and lower bar overlap is not sufficient.
you are correct. Knowledge is not the goal. skills come from perception instead. Having all the facts is knowledge. arranging knowldege into a differentiated continuum is the goal.
What this accomplishment does is make available the inference needed as you do sensing of the market. Concentratin does give this for OODA traders. They sit and watch price go through the bets they have on as explained in this thread by an OODA type BS'er.
The bridge is doing drills in a context that is known. It is an iterative refinement process. you exemplify this process of growth. The richness of your questions and even the ordr in which you put them is a spectacular revelation of how the mind works in its very very constructive manner.
I know I am asking lousy questions. But I have to ask now, somehow, before you run too far ahead.
So far, the content in this thread has been extremely helpful. Thank you very much.
YVW, my privilege.
I looked up a good volume monitoring chart that is bar related.
Use different colors of pens to work up the chart.
Write in just below the matrix the bar number at the PRV corresponding level.
Another veersion of this utility chart annotaes the skill level regions traders can adhere to.
drill.
1. As time passes use the time lines to place points and scribe point to point the completion of the 5 minute bar.
2. Tailor it to k200 and DAX by using linear equations of ratios. The vertical columns are the market PACE ranges.
3. as the chart fills up (say 15 lines), change colors occasionally.
4. Make the charts part of your debriefing to further under stand how PACE migrates during the day. Associate the internals 1600 bar drills for the cases and the regions where they occur for market PACE. this is putting the pieces together.
5. File the charts with your notes for the day. (date and inital)
Use different colors of pens to work up the chart.
Write in just below the matrix the bar number at the PRV corresponding level.
Another veersion of this utility chart annotaes the skill level regions traders can adhere to.
drill.
1. As time passes use the time lines to place points and scribe point to point the completion of the 5 minute bar.
2. Tailor it to k200 and DAX by using linear equations of ratios. The vertical columns are the market PACE ranges.
3. as the chart fills up (say 15 lines), change colors occasionally.
4. Make the charts part of your debriefing to further under stand how PACE migrates during the day. Associate the internals 1600 bar drills for the cases and the regions where they occur for market PACE. this is putting the pieces together.
5. File the charts with your notes for the day. (date and inital)
Here is the chart to drill with.
Go through the process of drawing lines and become familiar with the line shapes for surges and stalls of volume.
Get aquainted with how many lines it takes to see a change of PACE as the am proceeds and the pm picks up after settlement.
Do the process of digesting how the midday period works in markets.
All of this is knowledge acquisition that tempers your inference. By doing this sort of drill on bars as they form the mutations of price cases will gain more relavance and the timing of when in the bar the final mutation is established. As this becomes clear, you get to keep your focus on how to transition to a new bar forming. It is like the carryover from day to day but on a bar to bar level which happens about 12 times an hour or 70 to 80 times a day.
At this point you have built an 8 column log and now you have a volume recording sheet that gives you surges and lulls in the forming of a bar.
IBGS shifts will also become apparent as a coordinated volume-price phenomena.
Go through the process of drawing lines and become familiar with the line shapes for surges and stalls of volume.
Get aquainted with how many lines it takes to see a change of PACE as the am proceeds and the pm picks up after settlement.
Do the process of digesting how the midday period works in markets.
All of this is knowledge acquisition that tempers your inference. By doing this sort of drill on bars as they form the mutations of price cases will gain more relavance and the timing of when in the bar the final mutation is established. As this becomes clear, you get to keep your focus on how to transition to a new bar forming. It is like the carryover from day to day but on a bar to bar level which happens about 12 times an hour or 70 to 80 times a day.
At this point you have built an 8 column log and now you have a volume recording sheet that gives you surges and lulls in the forming of a bar.
IBGS shifts will also become apparent as a coordinated volume-price phenomena.