Gambler vs Trader

[Fireplace]

Says you. I've been a day trader for 12 years, fulltime, and I can tell you from my own experience that there are MANY ways to look at the same data as some one else and see new and/or different opportunities. It all comes down to the individual and their ability to interpret mkts. You don't NEED special or secret info, you just need to THINK creatively.

I use simple charts, with specific price/volume and have an accurate method for finding intraday turning points. The same stuff that worked in 1999 is working today, the very same ways.

Quote from guy990opl:

If you have the same info the rest of the world has you can still do 3 things. You go long , short or stay neutral. So what you DO with it is not enough to make money.

Looking at charts is pointless.

What one needs is a totally different way to look at the market and manage risk.

 

[iceman1]

Quote from emg:

This thread will help to decide if newbies and amateur want to pursue trading.

A successful full time trader:

1) they have a capital to start trading a minimum $500K to make a comfortable living.
2) they do not subscribe 3rd party vendors and they do not google search for a holy grail system and spend thousands of dollar on useless 3rd party vendors books, softwares, and indicators.
In fact, most of the successful traders are former prop trader, bank trader, hedge fund trader, floor trader, or begin their career working in the trader desk for a bank, brokerage, mutual funds, hedge funds, prop firm, and HFT firms.
3) Most of them have a college degree and the most successful traders hold a Master and PhD degrees in engineer (Math, computer)
Those that graduate a PhD degree have a higher successful rate of getting hired as a trader in big banks (bank of america, chase, citi, etc) or big brokerages (goldman sach). Those brokerages/banks have a training program to help them succeed. When these guys succeed, they will know for the fact that a huge capital $500K minimum is needed to become a successful full time trader and play the game the RIGHT WAY. They are too intelligence not to overleverage, but trade consistently and constantly.

Gambler:
1) They are not organized. They have no clue what is risk/reward trading. They do not have experience trading. They want to start trading with less than $5000. They overleverage like a gambler. For example, if they are profiting 3 days in a row, they will up it or put more money on the table.
2) They spend a lot of time google searching for a holy grail systems. They are willing to spend thousands of dollars on worthless 3rd party vendors books, softwares, indicators, boot camp, trading room, coaching 1 to 1. In other word, most 3rd party vendors are fail traders and the newbies/amateur are spending incredible money learning how to lose.
Losers learning losers on how to trade
3) They have no idea who are their competitors or have no idea how the game works.
4) There are many people who are still papertrading for 5 plus years. That person could have gone to a prestige college and take a degree on what the banks/brokerages/hedge funds are looking to hire instead of wasting their time papertrading.

5) More than 90% of small traders lose! They lose because they are a gambler. They just lose.

one thing you forgot...

traders are not pompous and have learned (often the hard way) to be humble. They also do not make sweeping generalizations or submit that a certain dollar amount (i.e. 500K) is necessary before someone qualifies as a "trader." Further I would submit that many good and great traders did not start at the "top" and did not have 500K capitalization, or anywhere near that amount, from the jump.

No offense but you sound as if you don't have a clue; what is your background to even make conclusions or generalizations? Are you a market researcher who took a statistically accurate survey OR are you just guessing or presuming.

If someone opens a 25K account and doubles it twice by December is that a trader or a gambler? If another takes 500K and lose 10-15% by then, what is that individual?

 

[guy990opl]

Other people and I follow a system and never look at charts to predict any future event. Sure I will look at it, but certainly do not base my trading off charts reading since the rest of the world is looking at them too.

You can look at them night and day interpert, think creatively before you
hang them on your fridge if you feel so inclined, but in the end you are still neutral, long or short. It's that simple !

Almost everything written/published/sold about trading or finance is only noise when it comes about making you money starting with chart reading.

If chart reading works everyone would do it and if everyone does it why not everyone is making money ? Because it does NOT work. What seems to work is to write a book or teach a seminar on chart reading

Now going back to the OP most people entering the market are gamblers. Obviously because they "invest and read charts" instead of betting on ponies they think they are traders, but they really are gamblers.

Quote from Fireplace:

Says you. I've been a day trader for 12 years, fulltime, and I can tell you from my own experience that there are MANY ways to look at the same data as some one else and see new and/or different opportunities. It all comes down to the individual and their ability to interpret mkts. You don't NEED special or secret info, you just need to THINK creatively.

I use simple charts, with specific price/volume and have an accurate method for finding intraday turning points. The same stuff that worked in 1999 is working today, the very same ways.

 

[iceman1]

wow.


so charts absolutely don't work because everyone has them and then why doesn't everyone make succeed. !?'

There is a convincing argument.

So back in the 70-90s when I was using charts, someone forgot to tell me that they do not work. When I studied T/A at the CME, I guess all that was a waste of time.

Fact is, tools just like medical instruments are only as good as the carpenter (or physician) using them.

 

[guy990opl]

@iceman1,

Bad analogy with the doctor/carpenter because in the market your gain is someone else loss. Maybe you can teach the rest of the world how to read them so everyone can make money.

 

[SnakeEYE]

Quote from iceman1:



If someone opens a 25K account and doubles it twice by December is that a trader or a gambler? If another takes 500K and lose 10-15% by then, what is that individual?

1)Pro gambler;
2)Ave Joe.

 

[SnakeEYE]

Quote from Pita:

retail trading and gambling are almost identical. What marks the difference is the luck factor which is unquestioned in gambling but denied or misinterpreted in trading.
.

And now the Q is,how to put luck in your favour.

 

[emg]

time to bump this thread

 

[Laissez Faire]

I read the book "Trading And Exchanges" by Larry Harris a little while back. I recommend it.

He differentiates between informed and uninformed traders. Utilitarian traders are uninformed traders who obtain some benefit from the markets besides trading profits. For example hedgers.

Speculators are informed traders who use information to predict future price changes more accurately than most other traders can. Their superior information gives them an advantage when they trade. Speculators trade because they expect to make money.

Here's what he say about gamblers:

"In contrast, gamblers are uninformed traders. Although they hope to make money, they have no rational reason to expect that they will do so.

Many - probably most - traders who gamble in the financial markets are unaware that they are gambling. Most believe that they are pursuing other objectives. Traders need great discipline to discriminate between prudent risk-taking behavior and gambling. Many traders who believe that they are speculating actually are gambling because they do not recognize that the information upon which they trade does not give them any advantage over other traders. Traders who gamble can sometimes be identified by their enthusiasm for trading and by their inability to clearly articulate their reasons for trading."

 

[smallStops]

I read the book "Trading And Exchanges" by Larry Harris a little while back. I recommend it.

He differentiates between informed and uninformed traders. Utilitarian traders are uninformed traders who obtain some benefit from the markets besides trading profits. For example hedgers.

Speculators are informed traders who use information to predict future price changes more accurately than most other traders can. Their superior information gives them an advantage when they trade. Speculators trade because they expect to make money.

Here's what he say about gamblers:

Thanks for the book title. added on my list.