Gaining Muscle and Losing Fat (2015)

[CaptainObvious]

Far as diet goes, the older you get you'll find that you won't be able to work past a bad diet, especially if you've let yourself go. Calories and carbs matter. Shit goes in and it stays in.
I run 3 miles, 3 time a week. I'm in the gym 5 days a week with Mondays and Wednesdays off. I do 25 minutes of high intensity cardio which consists of 3 minutes on an elliptical and 2 minutes of calisthenics,(push ups, sit ups, mountain climbers). 3 & 2 until I hit 25 minutes. No breaks.
Then I hit the weights for about half an hour. Traditional stuff, nothing special.
I'm 64. 6'5" tall and weigh 240-245. That's about 20lbs. heavier than what I was all through my 20', 30' and 40's. Age50-55 I ballooned up to 315lbs. Just quit giving a damn. Finally forced myself about 9 years ago to stand in front of a mirror naked. I was a disgusting lump of lard. Then started the tough journey back. I'm in pretty good shape now, but I still have a sweet tooth.
No alcohol, no drugs. No PED's, no nothing. I do drink a concoction of red beets, carrots and apple juice once a day. 2 tablespoons od apple cider vinegar and raw honey in a 6oz. glass of water once a day. Plenty of B vitamins along with a garlic pill, cayenne pepper pill 3 times a day, L-Arginine 3 times a day, zinc and D3.
Muscles hard. Pecker hard. Head still hard, but I'm working on that.

 

[Frederick Foresight]

You're getting meal timing confused with meal frequency. He's referring to meal frequency, as in the number of times that one eats each day.

You are correct. But in the reference to meal frequency, meal timing, i.e., fasting time, is implicitly addressed as well. But I understand what you're saying. I admit that I regarded intermittent fasting rather generically.

 

[wjk]

"Frederick Foresight, post: 4146786, member: 488296"]Truth be told, I was hoping this thread would have more focus on workout volume, duration, frequency and that sort of thing. Regarding diet, for the most part, I think we all know that we shouldn't eat crap, that our macronutrients should be in balance, and that total calories matter.

Ok then. My goal is to stay within a self proven calorie range, and using an 8 hour window on my first day was extremely effective. My workout was as intense as ever, done during my window. Today my workout will be just ahead of my window with pre workout and BCAA's along with my normal supplement regime (no steroids, not now, not ever).

I spent most of yesterday reading the pros and cons, and basically the conclusion at sites like bodybuilding.com and others is that the 16/8 version of IF is similar to a low carb diet regarding results. There are detractors, but by and large, most say the diet is safe. Asked around my gym last night and was amazed at how many are on one type of IF or another, and some of them are pretty damn shredded.

I use a multiple of workout techniques that range from centuries, 21's, pyramids, etc...changing up every few weeks to months. I make gains slowly at my age, but do still make them. I lose them faster at my age, and will monitor my various muscle sizes while I try this diet. My max allowable macros:

50g fat, 14g sat fat, <2g trans...usually none, though.
175g carb
215g protein
<200mg chol
<1500mg sodium (nearly impossible)
<250 cals wheat product
Ideal Glycemic load 50
Total calorie target: 2010, give or take.

These numbers are nearly impossible for me to achieve eating regularly through the day. When I have stayed with them, they are effective at getting me to my target weight. Problem has been staying with them. I love to eat, especially when trading!
I had no problem staying within these numbers in an 8 hour window. It was very easy to not eat until 2, though I cheated and had a 9 hour window because my workout went long. My workout consisted of 45 minutes cardio, and two hours of weight training, lats, triceps, biceps, and abs.

Tricep PD cable: 200lbs, ext machine, hammer strength: 280lbs, Ovhead side extenders 35lb high rep
Bicep Lift cable: 45lb high rep, Preacher 100lbs,
Machine row, (hammer strength) 240lbs. Pullover machine (lats and tri combo): 160lb Cable row 200lbs (cable tris, bis, rows were supersetted)
Abs: 50 hanging Leg lift, 50 roman chair (no weights).

All heavy lifts started and pyramided higher as such: 24 reps, 18 reps, 15 reps, 12 reps, last weight 9 reps, then 6 - 9 reps for a second max set.

Today will by chest and shoulders.

I will occasionally work a muscle twice in one full cycle (about a week) if it's not sore, has been at least 3 or 4 days since it was last trained, and won't make the workout too long.

This is a sample of what I think you are asking. I won't do this very often, but you get the idea. I weighed 207 yesterday morning. 204 this morning. My right bi is exactly 17". my body fat yesterday morning was a horrible 18%. My weight target with this diet is 175 - 180, body fat target 6-10%.

We'll see. I will periodically post my weight and body fat...if I successfully stay on it.

 

[fhl]

Assuming the research was conducted properly, I think the only conclusion you can draw is that the answer isn't clear one way or the other. If there is no meaningful difference, then apparently there is no meaningful advantage of one approach over the other, at least as things presently stand. Again, I'm just the devil's advocate here presenting countervailing evidence.

But we are each our very own laboratory, and are free to conduct our own research on ourselves as we see fit. I did and arrived at my own conclusion. For now.

By all means give intermittent fasting a try. I'm curious to know how you will fare, as I'm sure others here are as well. But, to make sure we're isolating the timing of meals, because that is the point of this discussion, your caloric intake should be roughly the same. Keep us posted.

I have been IF for about a year. I don't count calories. I just eat whatever I want. I started doing it because i was interested in the prevention of metabolic syndrome. I can't tell much difference in the way my body looks, but I do feel better and I'm banking on it providing the preventative effects that have been included on the research. That's all I can tell you.

 

[wjk]

11AM - Stimulant based pre-workout drink.
11:30AM - Work out while sipping a BCAA drink.

Today was my first fasting workout...ever. Did my normal pre-workout ((optimum Nutrition Platinum Pre) 45 minutes before I hit the weights (start of cardio), and took 1/2 serving of ON pro BCAA 15 mins before hitting the weights (toward the cool down end of my cardio). First time I've ever taken pure BCAA (as a mixing powder). Great energy for not eating in 15 hours. Felt good all morning and during workout, so...so far so good.

Today's workout 45 min light cardio followed by 1.5 hours weights. All heavy today, no high rep stuff. No probs with anything.

 

[FCXoptions]

Up about 6lbs as of this morning and feeling much stronger already, clearly my body was craving some extra food and gym time lol. I'm 6'4" so 6lbs has somewhat of a noticeable effect but not very much. I was 188/189 about a week ago first thing in the AM and 195 this morning after using the bathroom. My intake has been light today (summer class started tonight) but once I get back to the house I'm going to attempt to make up some lost ground and do a quick workout with some dumbells at the house. My goal is a solid 215 within 2 months but that's going to be difficult. That's the heaviest I've been. I usually plateau around 200-203 but I'm hoping to blow through that this time...it will take a lot of food

 

[Frederick Foresight]

What do you guys think about low volume training as presented in these links:

http://www.ageless-athletes.com/90minutes.php

http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/LowVolumeTraining.html

http://www.exrx.net/Questions/LowVolume.html

After Baron started the predecessor to this thread over 3 years ago, it made me rethink the amount of volume I had been doing for years because that was the "conventional wisdom" when I first began weight training many years ago. Baron's thread got me looking for more recent research on volume thresholds and I was pleasantly surprised, although somewhat disappointed because of all the unnecessary work I had been doing over the years.

I will admit that I don't do quite so few sets per muscle group as outlined in the links, but I brought my volume way down.

I already posted the following link earlier in this thread, but I thought I'd post it again. It shows some interesting research results in this area:

http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Research.html

I'm curious to know if some of you guys have been experimenting with volume to arrive at what you believe to be the appropriate "dose" that presently works for you.

 

[PolarTim]

As a type 1 insulin dependent diabetic for three decades, I track blood sugars up to seven times a day. I started running 3.4 miles (5.5 km) in 35 minutes six years ago. I run at 5 a.m., with only a cup of coffee beforehand. On those days, I can use half the insulin for any meal I eat (5 units vs. 10). On the day after running, I can use 75% of the normal insulin.

I saw a BBC Horizon show on fasting a few years ago. One guy ate huge amounts of fruit but had marathon runner fitness levels, so I decided to try this starting June 15:

- Eat no bread, pasta or added sugar (natural in fruits and vegetables is allowed).
- Eat fruits or vegetables (no potatoes or corn) and <10% fat proteins until full.
- Avoiding milk and cheese, except some cream in coffee.

To test this, I stopped running but still lift light weights three times a week for up to 15 minutes.

During the first week, I had severe cravings for complex carbs, but that faded. When hungry I eat the above foods whenever needed until full.

The results:
- Weight went from 215 to 205 lbs.
- Blood sugar average is similar to when I was running, sometimes lower (~6 in metric, 80-100 non-metric). In other words, I now use 5 units of insulin and sometimes that is too much for a large meal, vs. 10 units before diet (without running).
- Digestion and sleep quality have improved.
- Mental clarity improved.
- Sometimes get tired but that passes with some fruit and then fall asleep at bedtime in a couple minutes. Sleep 6 to 8 hours a night.

I have never been able to lose weight from diet alone, including 16 hours fasts as Baron described and the BBC mentions, but this worked. My idea was to do something that was sustainable, enjoyable and effective. Once the one month test is up, I am going to add running back in to see how that does for a second month.

Tim

 

[wjk]

What do you guys think about low volume training as presented in these links:

http://www.ageless-athletes.com/90minutes.php

http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/LowVolumeTraining.html

http://www.exrx.net/Questions/LowVolume.html

After Baron started the predecessor to this thread over 3 years ago, it made me rethink the amount of volume I had been doing for years because that was the "conventional wisdom" when I first began weight training many years ago. Baron's thread got me looking for more recent research on volume thresholds and I was pleasantly surprised, although somewhat disappointed because of all the unnecessary work I had been doing over the years.

I will admit that I don't do quite so few sets per muscle group as outlined in the links, but I brought my volume way down.

I already posted the following link earlier in this thread, but I thought I'd post it again. It shows some interesting research results in this area:

http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Research.html

I'm curious to know if some of you guys have been experimenting with volume to arrive at what you believe to be the appropriate "dose" that presently works for you.

Fred: Interesting articles. I read Muscle Mag for about 5 years, starting at age 50. I made incredible gains at my age because of the different techniques (body shock a big factor, no doubt). Regarding volume: I always start a session with 1/5th of my max weight, either all time high, or desired high. I usually start with 24 reps, and decrease with weight, though this is not absolute. If my tendons are hurting, my max weight will be 1/5 or 1/4 of my highs, and I will do 48 reps to start, and finish with 36 at 2/5 of max. From there, I will gradually move back up to the heavier weights.

That said, when I lift heavy, as I'm doing now, I NEVER go deep on the first rep of my top weight(s). I still do adequate warm up of 18 to 24 reps (depending on how much energy I want to retain for heavy lifting), I move up incrementally, and when I get into the heavy shit, I always do partial reps for the first 1 or 2 reps before going full range. Tendons (and muscles) take a lot longer to recover from injury at 56 years of age. My volume is always changing according to what current style of lifting I'm utilizing, and how much weight I'm using in that style. The variables are as endless as trading techniques!

For the record, I get a better buzz on heavy lifts of 3 -6 reps then 100 light reps, though each serve important purposes depending on what you are looking for in your personal goals. I never do more than 2 sets at any weight, and when I'm lifting my max weights, I'll usually try to do at least 2 sets at max, even if it's only a couple reps. That second lift always is easier (for me). I vary my sets during my pyramids in different ways for a multitude of reasons, and it would take too much detail to explain my reasons in this forum (might just be mood one day). I look for results, and if I don't get them, I move on. Like all things, body building is an evolving science, as you know. Try different stuff (sounds like you are, but be skeptical of all things on the web. You already know that, too.) One thing that will never change. Listen to your body. It will tell you what you are looking for.

One thing I don't do at my age: I don't warm up and then go heavy. I can't lift as heavy because I expend energy getting my heavier weights through increments, but my tendons are in better shape than a lot of guys I know in the gym half my age. Some times I'll do break downs, but that falls under the multiple of variables I mentioned earlier.

In the end, it's the diet. That's what kills me. I immediately like the idea behind this diet when this thread was started. So far, I love this 16/8. If nothing else, it has forced me into my calorie range, and my mental clarity seems to be improved, if for no other reason, because my carb intake is greatly reduced by not snacking in front of my trading charts all day!! + I'm losing weight! Good luck, Bro!!!

 

[Frederick Foresight]

Fred: Interesting articles. I read Muscle Mag for about 5 years, starting at age 50. I made incredible gains at my age because of the different techniques (body shock a big factor, no doubt). Regarding volume: I always start a session with 1/5th of my max weight, either all time high, or desired high. I usually start with 24 reps, and decrease with weight, though this is not absolute. If my tendons are hurting, my max weight will be 1/5 or 1/4 of my highs, and I will do 48 reps to start, and finish with 36 at 2/5 of max. From there, I will gradually move back up to the heavier weights.

That said, when I lift heavy, as I'm doing now, I NEVER go deep on the first rep of my top weight(s). I still do adequate warm up of 18 to 24 reps (depending on how much energy I want to retain for heavy lifting), I move up incrementally, and when I get into the heavy shit, I always do partial reps for the first 1 or 2 reps before going full range. Tendons (and muscles) take a lot longer to recover from injury at 56 years of age. My volume is always changing according to what current style of lifting I'm utilizing, and how much weight I'm using in that style. The variables are as endless as trading techniques!

For the record, I get a better buzz on heavy lifts of 3 -6 reps then 100 light reps, though each serve important purposes depending on what you are looking for in your personal goals. I never do more than 2 sets at any weight, and when I'm lifting my max weights, I'll usually try to do at least 2 sets at max, even if it's only a couple reps. That second lift always is easier (for me). I vary my sets during my pyramids in different ways for a multitude of reasons, and it would take too much detail to explain my reasons in this forum (might just be mood one day). I look for results, and if I don't get them, I move on. Like all things, body building is an evolving science, as you know. Try different stuff (sounds like you are, but be skeptical of all things on the web. You already know that, too.) One thing that will never change. Listen to your body. It will tell you what you are looking for.

One thing I don't do at my age: I don't warm up and then go heavy. I can't lift as heavy because I expend energy getting my heavier weights through increments, but my tendons are in better shape than a lot of guys I know in the gym half my age. Some times I'll do break downs, but that falls under the multiple of variables I mentioned earlier.

In the end, it's the diet. That's what kills me. I immediately like the idea behind this diet when this thread was started. So far, I love this 16/8. If nothing else, it has forced me into my calorie range, and my mental clarity seems to be improved, if for no other reason, because my carb intake is greatly reduced by not snacking in front of my trading charts all day!! + I'm losing weight! Good luck, Bro!!!

Thanks for the response. We're the same age, although I'll be 57 in less than one month. (So be sure to show some respect for your elders.)

As I had mentioned, before Baron started his predecessor thread something over 3 years ago, I spent almost 2 hours doing weights in the gym and then 30 minutes of cardio on an incline treadmill. Crazy, I know. It was a full body routine done twice a week. But I had reduced it some years earlier from 3 split workouts per week (ABA, BAB, etc.). Regardless of age, it was unnecessary volume -- too many sets per muscle group -- and it was beginning to tax me. What I had done in my foolish youth was beginning to grind me down.

Presently, I'm still doing a full body routine and only twice a week, but it takes me just under 45 minutes to complete. I do an abbreviated cardio routine at the end which takes just under 10 minutes, and supplement that with a couple of cardio workouts at home, each of which takes less than 15 minutes. The cardio workouts are brief, but intense and involve no equipment.

As for the resistance portion, I've taken out direct arm work and only do compound movements: 4 total sets for pulling and 4 sets for pushing (2 exercises for each). I go all out and find it to be plenty. I do the largest muscle groups first, so the sequence is legs, back and then chest. In the process all muscles get worked. I do a warm up, but I then immediately do my heaviest set, followed either by a lighter weight or fewer reps, depending on the exercise. I generally keep my rep range in the 7 to 12 area, depending on the exercise or set sequence. My workouts are shorter and I genuinely enjoy them, bringing myself to the limit, doing full range of motion and keeping form in check. I wish I had been working out in this manner for the last few decades!

I'm not really looking to gain at this point, because I had been working out my whole adult life, so at my (our) age it's more about maintenance and hangin' on. But, hey, if I manage to somehow make a bit of occasional headway, I won't complain.

Regarding diet, that has never been a problem for me, although I do need to be more careful now than when I was younger. I just eat smart and avoid the pitfalls. As I had mentioned in an earlier post, I don't do IF but I do drink a lot of fluids and that helps keep my appetite in check. For example, I have a half liter of green tea before breakfast and then have two more half-liter cups with a breakfast that I have in 3 parts. I then drink a fair amount of water and camomile tea during the rest of the day. As previously noted, I can't eat too much during the end of the day, because that had begun to affect my sleep. (That's why I don't think I'm a good candidate for IF, irrespective of its efficacy.) I love my carbs, but I avoid the white ones, and eat the good ones in moderation. I have all but eliminated (added) sugar from my diet: my total daily intake is about 2 teaspoons. (And that's only because Costco only sells soymilk with a bit of cane sugar, and I'll be damned if I'll pay almost twice as much elsewhere for the unsweetened version, since I only have at most one cup a day.)