Gaining Muscle and Losing Fat (2015)

[CaptainObvious]

Tough break. Hope everyone's training is going well.

Nasty. This is why, IMO, that unless you're going to lift in competition the average gym rat should never perform these type lifts. No snatches, no cleans, no jerks.They're just to dangerous. You can get plenty fit, work every muscle, and accomplish anything you like without ever going near these lifts. These moves are all ego and nothing else.
Yeah, yeah, you can get hurt doing anything, but why complicate things?

 

[Frederick Foresight]

Nasty. This is why, IMO, that unless you're going to lift in competition the average gym rat should never perform these type lifts. No snatches, no cleans, no jerks.They're just to dangerous. You can get plenty fit, work every muscle, and accomplish anything you like without ever going near these lifts. These moves are all ego and nothing else.
Yeah, yeah, you can get hurt doing anything, but why complicate things?

I agree. Olympic-style lifts that are heavy on technique and momentum have a place in competition, but not so much in the life of a weekend warrior.

 

[fhl]

Disagree completely on the oly lifts. There's no law that says you have to go for a one rep pr when you do them. They can be done with light weight for reps just like any other lifts. Those crossfit people do what they call thrusters which do exactly that.

Performing a snatch or a clean, compared to a just doing a squat, is roughly the same as comparing a squat to a leg press. Which is to say there's really no comparison.
The flexibility and balance and number of muscles involved is what makes a squat better than a leg press, and when you perform a snatch it's like taking that compound movement and squaring it. It literally recruits so many more muscles and forces a whole new sense of balance that it just takes it all to a completely different level, just like a squat vs a leg press does.
Recruiting multiple 'compound muscle groups' and forcing them to all work together at the same time is like no other workout. It's awesome.

 

[Frederick Foresight]

You can do plenty of compounds without having to resort to momentum. Momentum in the gym with a meaningful weight is an accident waiting to happen. As with getting hit by a car, it tends to happen when you least expect it; the moment you let your guard down. Sure, Oly lifts have their place, but I would say they are best suited for competitors. The risk/reward just isn't there for the non-competitive, average lifter looking to get in shape.

Oh, and CrossFit is a bad idea.

 

[fhl]

You can do plenty of compounds without having to resort to momentum. Momentum in the gym with a meaningful weight is an accident waiting to happen. As with getting hit by a car, it tends to happen when you least expect it; the moment you let your guard down. Sure, Oly lifts have their place, but I would say they are best suited for competitors. The risk/reward just isn't there for the non-competitive, average lifter looking to get in shape.

Oh, and CrossFit is crap.

The non competitive, avg lifter just wanting to get in shape really has no need to do a scientific analysis of the optimal nanosecond to complete a rep either. But, somehow, you're focused like a laser on it. lol

This vid, taken from post 707 of this thread, is just a clean and jerk in drag.

The only difference is that using a bar requires more balance and flexibility. And the last time I checked, balance and flexibility are an enhancement to longevity.

If all I wanted to do was be avg, non competitive, and assume the weekend warrior outlook on life, I suppose I would be inclined towards the type of workout you do.

 

[Frederick Foresight]

The non competitive, avg lifter just wanting to get in shape really has no need to do a scientific analysis of the optimal nanosecond to complete a rep either. But, somehow, you're focused like a laser on it. lol

This vid, taken from post 707 of this thread, is just a clean and jerk in drag.

The only difference is that using a bar requires more balance and flexibility. And the last time I checked, balance and flexibility are an enhancement to longevity.

If all I wanted to do was be avg, non competitive, and assume the weekend warrior outlook on life, I suppose I would be inclined towards the type of workout you do.

I'm quite focused on maximum bang for the buck.

The workout in your video looks useful but is not of a type that appeals to me. Is it resistance or is it cardio, because he doesn't do any of the exercises to failure; he just keeps switching. I prefer to do my resistance work to failure and my cardio in burst intervals. Oh, and the guy juices. But you knew that, right?

To the extend that you rely on momentum, you're not using your muscles at that moment (so what's the point?) and are setting your joints up for unnecessary risk. Have at it if you must.

By "weekend warrior" I mean someone who works out for its own sake and for health and fitness rather than to actually compete at an event. But by all means trash talk if it makes you feel better.

 

[fhl]

I'm quite focused on maximum bang for the buck.

The workout in your video looks useful but is not of a type that appeals to me. Oh, and the guy juices. But you knew that, right?

To the extend that you rely on momentum, you're not using your muscles at that moment and are setting your joints up for unnecessary risk. Have at it if you must.

By "weekend warrior" I mean someone who works out for its own sake and for health and fitness rather than to actually compete at an event. But by all means trash talk if it makes you feel better.

An exercise that combines several compound movements has quite a lot of bang for the buck. The reward is much greater than you give credit for, perhaps because you've never done them.
And the risk? Large if you go heavy and do max lifts. But as for using a light, manageable weight for reps, I've never seen any kind of serious injury from them. The most likely worst case scenario is hitting yourself on the chin or throat when cleaning, and about everyone has done that while learning the movement. It is not an 'accident waiting to happen'.

Juice? What in the world does that have to do with it? Do you seriously think that the lifts that guy was doing in the vid are only appropriate for someone who juices? No wonder pistol squats are a primary exercise for you.

 

[Frederick Foresight]

An exercise that combines several compound movements has quite a lot of bang for the buck.

Not really. He may get a good cardio workout, and he may build some strength, but he'll be compromising on the strength/hypertrophy component.

And the risk? Large if you go heavy and do max lifts. But as for using a light, manageable weight for reps, I've never seen any kind of serious injury from them.

So in other words, never coming anywhere close to failure, because doing so would incur risk for that kind of movement. That's my point. Thanks for confirming it.

Juice? What in the world does that have to do with it? Do you seriously think that the lifts that guy was doing in the vid are only appropriate for someone who juices?

Quite the contrary. I don't think anyone gets to look like that doing those exercises in that manner.

No wonder pistol squats are a primary exercise for you.

I know you like to trash talk, and that's fine. Whatever floats your boat. But all kidding aside, nothing is as demanding as sufficiently weighted pistols. I've done barbell squats with double my weight for up to 10 reps on the first set, and leg presses with about 4 times my weight for over 20 reps on the first set. So while I wasn't "competitive" by any stretch, I was no slouch. But doing "breathing" pistol squats with dumbbells that add up to more than half my bodyweight leaves me breathless longer at the end of a 16-rep set than either regular squats or presses ever had. The beauty part is that you can go absolutely all out and not risk the kind of injury that can occur with a heavy barbell on your back. And I do. I have never worked my legs so hard and with such a full range of motion (ATG) as with pistols. I only wish I had started doing them years earlier.

 

[fhl]

Not really. He may get a good cardio workout, and he may build some strength, but he'll be compromising on the strength/hypertrophy component.

So in other words, never coming anywhere close to failure, because doing so would incur risk for that kind of movement. That's my point. Thanks for confirming it.

Quite the contrary. I don't think anyone gets to look like that doing those exercises in that manner.
.

1. If you think oly lifts for reps will only obtain a good cardio workout, you've shown again that you just haven't done them and you don't really know their benefits.

2. Who said never coming anywhere close to failure? I think you just made that up and put it into my mouth. Shame on you Going near failure with a manageable weight is not taking outsize risk.

3. I showed the vid to contradict the claim that they are dangerous exercises that shouldn't be done. I think I succeeded.


It seems you basically have the same attitude I had about these lifts before I ever tried them. The notion that focusing on one compound movement to optimize will attain more strength in that particular movement than combining it in a clean or snatch.
But here's the deal. A true clean or snatch, not like the power cleans in that vid, is done by combining the lift off the bottom and the full descent squat all at the same time. It ups the ante over anything else out there. All muscles forced to fire at the same time.
The functionality benefits of obtaining the balance and strength to combine it all takes it to a completely different level.
The oly lifts are about enhancing athleticism as well as strength whereas the typical lifting regimen is something I've come to view as being geared toward a narcissistic affection with a mirror.

 

[Frederick Foresight]

1. If you think oly lifts for reps will only obtain a good cardio workout, you've shown again that you just haven't done them and you don't really know their benefits.

I didn't say that. I said that while the exercise sequence in the video may give a good cardio workout, the strength/hypertrophy component is likely compromised; I didn't say it was nonexistent. I'm not saying it's a walk in the park, just that there are more efficient ways to build strength.

2. Who said never coming anywhere close to failure? I think you just made that up and put it into my mouth. Shame on you Going near failure with a manageable weight is not taking outsize risk.

People use momentum to lift a weight that they could otherwise not be able to lift without momentum. Therefore, to make a momentum-type exercise sufficiently difficult to be worthwhile, you have to use a higher weight than you would use for an exercise that does not require momentum, all else being equal. A heavier weight with momentum is a riskier proposition than a lighter weight without momentum. That is my point. Plus, when not using momentum, the muscles are under tension for the entire range of motion rather than just a portion of it. The guy in the video was using momentum. It may look good and feel good. And you may prefer it. I don't.

Again, I'm not suggesting that what you are proposing is easy, and I'm not suggesting it has no value. But I don't think that working all of the muscle groups at the same time ("all muscles forced to fire at the same time") adequately and completely works any individual muscle group. You can't work all muscle groups to or near failure at the same time. I'm all for efficiency and focus almost exclusively on compounds. But I prefer one at a time. Consider a compound of your choice, be it a squat, a pull-up or whatever, and do it with absolutely no momentum at a deliberate and uniform speed both up and down to the point of failure. I think that is how you make maximal inroads.

The oly lifts are about enhancing athleticism as well as strength whereas the typical lifting regimen is something I've come to view as being geared toward a narcissistic affection with a mirror.

I think compounds taken to failure can enhance athleticism, and certainly when coupled with cardio comprising bursts of max speed intervals.

"Mirror exercises" are mostly isolation-type exercises, which I have discarded years ago. Basic compounds have evolutionary relevance, whereas isolation exercises do not. As for narcissism, I could make that argument for swinging a heavier weight rather than properly lifting a lighter one and making the muscle work every inch of the way, both up and down.