Gaining Muscle and Losing Fat (2015)

[fhl]

Seriously, what's with the attitude?

I'm already as lean as I need to be. As for strength and size, you think people who started early and worked out hard and diligently their whole adult lives will continue to make gains forever? You don't think that, even after a number of decades, a person might eventually reach his genetic potential? Evidently, you haven't been at this for very long. As for Clarence Bass, I think he's a great guy. I've read a number of his pieces on his website and learned from them. And he's in great shape. But have you noticed that, after a certain point, he stopped getting progressively larger and leaner?

http://www.cbass.com/PICTORAL.HTM

And as for "working yourself into the ground," I was alluding to the fact that it defeats the actual objective; you risk going into negative territory. Was that not clear enough for you? Perhaps you should read my post again, except maybe more slowly this time.

I'd love to continue making gains. And I'm willing to put in the effort provided that I don't overtax my recovery capability, which would defeat the purpose of the enterprise. However, I'm also being realistic about how much farther I, personally, can expect to make progress given my specific circumstances and training history.

This is a good thread. I think it has something for all ages and training ages. And I welcome criticism and debate with respect to anything I have posted. But please try not to detract from this thread by attempting to score points with cheap and misguided shots. Let's leave that for the next forum down the list, shall we?

Yeah, right Fred.
You've spent this whole thread saying less is more and posting article after article trying to prove that low volume provides for gains as well as high volume, including for old folks like Clarence Bass, who've trained for decades, just like yourself. Then you come off with how it doesn't apply to you? If you're so finely tuned that you couldn't possibly attain any gains without 'working yourself into the ground', then why are you so interested in all the less is more stuff? Less is not more for you. This thread is not about getting back to your baseline. It's about gains. Thread title and all? So try to stay on topic, alright smartass? It's been on topic until you tried to take it in another direction. I don't appreciate that. Do better.

 

[Frederick Foresight]

Yeah, right Fred.
You've spent this whole thread saying less is more and posting article after article trying to prove that low volume provides for gains as well as high volume, including for old folks like Clarence Bass, who've trained for decades, just like yourself. Then you come off with how it doesn't apply to you? If you're so finely tuned that you couldn't possibly attain any gains without 'working yourself into the ground', then why are you so interested in all the less is more stuff? Less is not more for you. This thread is not about getting back to your baseline. It's about gains. Thread title and all? So try to stay on topic, alright smartass? It's been on topic until you tried to take it in another direction. I don't appreciate that. Do better.

Are you obtuse, or are you just enjoying yourself? Despite my trying to make myself clear to you in good faith, you chose to misinterpret pretty much everything I wrote because you evidently have an ax to grind. Perhaps now would be a good time for another one of your anti-Buffett dietary updates, Dick.

 

[Frederick Foresight]

An interesting exchange on volume and frequency:

http://www.exrx.net/Questions/TrainingFrequency.html

Perhaps somewhat extreme, even for my own newly-acquired taste for low volume & frequency, but it does serve as something of a reminder to not just mindlessly accept conventional wisdom broscience at face value.

 

[CaptainObvious]

An interesting exchange on volume and frequency:

http://www.exrx.net/Questions/TrainingFrequency.html

Perhaps somewhat extreme, even for my own newly-acquired taste for low volume & frequency, but it does serve as something of a reminder to not just mindlessly accept conventional wisdom broscience at face value.

I am inclined to believe once muscle strength and tone have been developed that a person would not lose strength or tone with less frequency. I still maintain that more frequency is what you need up front when trying to get yourself into shape. I also believe that isolation exercises are a waste of time and strength during this beginning phase. That, and a clean diet matters, a lot.

 

[Frederick Foresight]

I am inclined to believe once muscle strength and tone have been developed that a person would not lose strength or tone with less frequency. I still maintain that more frequency is what you need up front when trying to get yourself into shape. I also believe that isolation exercises are a waste of time and strength during this beginning phase. That, and a clean diet matters, a lot.

You'll note, however, that he claimed to have gotten both stronger and bigger when he reduced his frequency:

"When I first tried this, I was worried about losing the minuscule gains I had managed to achieve with traditional higher frequency training. But after I got over this initial fear and gave it a try, my strength and muscle gains were tremendous. I challenge anyone to give it a try."

Relatively speaking, I do agree that higher frequency is better for a beginner than when he becomes more experienced, because he will not initially be able to exert the kind of intensity than will later require greater recovery time. As for isolation exercises, I'm not really sure what they bring to the table regardless of a person's training age.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Couple of things to report. On Sunday, which was a deadlift, squat day, wall ball warm up day. I decided to really concentrate on form and slow down my reps. Didn't add any weight at all and didn't do any more reps or sets than usual. Woke up yesterday morning and holy crap, was sore and stiff like I was a newbee.
Monday was a rest day. Today was upper body weight day. I always do a 15 minute cardio warm up before this routine. Nothing crazy, just a decent pace on an elliptical. Just a mild sweat going. Today I decided no warm up other than my normal 10 minutes of stretching I do before every workout. 10 minutes in. Not breaking a sweat. 20 minutes in. Nothing, I'm powering through. 30 minutes in. Not so much as a glisten on my skin. Feel great. 35 minutes and I'm standing there like, okay that's it. Routine is finished and I don't feel like I've had much of a workout at all. Did everything I normally do. Can it be that the 15 minutes of mild, I emphasize mild cardio warm up is taking that much out of me?

 

[wjk]

I'm not really sure what they bring to the table regardless of a person's training age.

I've been reading up on this. I didn't realize there was so much debate. Rehab seems to be the most common answer. Targeting individual groups seems a more limited reason, though in a few muscle groups, effective...especially in more advanced lifters who know how to apply it as a supplement to their compound exercises with result varying from lifter to lifter. Pre-exhaustion comes up, and I would add, if you want to train around certain injuries, there may be no choice but to use isolation. In general, compound lifting is king. I didn't link the articles I read. They are abundant on the web.

I've recently added an extra day of recovery between workout days (either after 2 consecutive or 3 consecutive workout days) and I'm very happy with the results: more strength in the gym on workout days. Working fairly light on the weights with moderate reps as I've had two setbacks this year...broken transportation cost me a month (I have a nice setup here, but can't get to it until I get rid of some junk) and then the flu cost me another two weeks just a month later. Back in business, now, though. Doing mostly compounds currently. Feels good to be back in the gym.

Anyone here utilizing the Mediterranean style diet, regardless of fasting?

 

[Frederick Foresight]

Can it be that the 15 minutes of mild, I emphasize mild cardio warm up is taking that much out of me?

Good question. Although I know some people who start their workout with light cardio as a warm up, I never do. I don't want anything to compromise my lifting routine, so I leave the cardio for later. I used to stretch for several minutes before my workout, but after reading Body By Science I decided to leave it for the end, after cardio. In my own case, now as soon as I enter the gym, I do 2 light warm up sets for legs, which is the first muscle group I address, and go from there. I find it suits me. I feel strong and energized at the outset after the 2 warm up sets, and the stretching feels good at the end of the routine. I'd be curious to know how others here sequence their routine.

CaptainO, do you find that you prefer to start your routine without a cardio warm up? And if you feel you didn't have "much of a workout at all," perhaps you might wish to consider increasing the intensity a bit. Just a thought.

I decided to really concentrate on form and slow down my reps. Didn't add any weight at all and didn't do any more reps or sets than usual. Woke up yesterday morning and holy crap, was sore and stiff like I was a newbee.

I think you're on to something.

 

[Frederick Foresight]

Anyone here utilizingthe Mediterranean style diet, regardless of fasting?

I've never really labeled it, but I think I qualify, sans the fasting.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l...ting/in-depth/mediterranean-diet/art-20047801

 

[Frederick Foresight]

I've recently added an extra day of recovery between workout days (either after 2 consecutive or 3 consecutive workout days) and I'm very happy with the results: more strength in the gym on workout days. Working fairly light on the weights with moderate reps as I've had two setbacks this year...broken transportation cost me a month (I have a nice setup here, but can't get to it until I get rid of some junk) and then the flu cost me another two weeks just a month later. Back in business, now, though. Doing mostly compounds currently. Feels good to be back in the gym.

Glad to hear you're back in business. And, yes, what a difference a day makes, eh? I find that I have more energy ever since I added an additional recovery day, which took my routine from 2x a week to 3x every 2 weeks, and I really look forward to the next workout.

You will recall the 2-part interview of bodybuilder Gordon LaVelle, which I posted recently in this thread. In one of his books he wrote this about working out and competitive bodybuilders:

"Although it has been proven that weight-training workouts need not be long or frequent to be optimally effective, this fact is often incongruent with the mentality that drives men to build extremely muscular physiques."

And he was talking about guys who take steroids, which also aids in recovery. So you can imagine that the point is even more applicable to natural, slightly more vintage guys like us.