Futures Trading Analysis

KP,

If one cut out a shape out of a cardboard and only looked at say randomly generated price through it, would trading improve if one traded only when price fit that shape? Cutting out the cardboard hasn't changed the 'randomness' of the randomly generated price, hence the future even if the cardboard hole matches that shape of price is still random.

The underlying question is whether markets are random. If that generated data isn't random then perhaps that cardboard box hole might provide an advantage. For a purely random system it isn't likely to help much.

Gringo
 
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Well I'm at a loss to be able to argue this too well to be honest. First, the market isn't really random. Each tick might be given that there are all sorts of algos doing all sorts of things, but when you really look, important levels are defended over and over again, or they are rejected over and over again. So its not random to me.

But I think based on what I read monoid say, the fact that you're using trading systems, which I know nothing about, might make my arguments incomplete or even worthless as I'm not understanding systems too well.

My only point I wanted to make was that if you take something that looks random, but now start to add some structure to it, you might find you have something to go on.

Take speeding tickets. Perhaps people speeding in all sorts of cars is random, and who ever gets pulled over is just the luck of the draw. But if you take into account the color of the car, its been shown that red or yellow cars are pulled over more frequently. So if you want to get pulled over for speeding, buy a yellow or red car to increase your chances. Or, if you don't want to get pulled over, stick to black or gray which perhaps stands out less to the eye and blends in better with all the other stuff on the road. This is how I think of all of this.

Ok, what prevents you or anyone from making millions or even cornering the market?

I will provide my answer-- the market morphs patterns and anything that apoears to repeats into ramdomness to survive. If it didnt constantly change it couldnt exist. This constant changing is why any fixed system is doomed to fail
 
Ok, what prevents you or anyone from making millions or even cornering the market?
What prevents me thus far is that my trades have been random. What I say works, and what I know works, isn't what I have done up till now. In short, I am the reason why it hasn't worked for me yet.

As for cornering the market, this isn't the idea. We are only trying to follow what the big money is doing. I have read before that if you start trading so much size that you are now the market, this isn't what you want. I am looking to get into a move, not make the move. I don't know where price is going to go, I am simply looking to figure out what the big guys intend to do and ride along.
 
KP,

If one cut out a shape out of a cardboard and only looked at say randomly generated price through it, would trading improve if one traded only when price fit that shape? Cutting out the cardboard hasn't changed the 'randomness' of the randomly generated price, hence the future even if the cardboard hole matches that shape of price is still random.

The underlying question is whether markets are random. If that randomly generated data isn't random then perhaps that cardboard box hole might provide an advantage. For a purely random system it isn't likely to help much.

Gringo
Gringo... you absolutely lost me with your example. :(

But I think what you're saying is that if the market is random, then a framework doesn't make it any less random, and hence I'm wrong. But since we both believe that the market isn't random, then a framework will absolutely lead to an edge that can be exploited.

I think I should have stayed out of this. LOL
 
What prevents me thus far is that my trades have been random. What I say works, and what I know works, isn't what I have done up till now. In short, I am the reason why it hasn't worked for me yet.

As for cornering the market, this isn't the idea. We are only trying to follow what the big money is doing. I have read before that if you start trading so much size that you are now the market, this isn't what you want. I am looking to get into a move, not make the move. I don't know where price is going to go, I am simply looking to figure out what the big guys intend to do and ride along.

You are on the right track following the big money--- I am certainly not trying to discourage anyone-- if you can follow big money by looking at charts, keep doing it!! surf
 
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I find dramatic existential issues with the idea that patterns and price repeat in a non-random consistently exploitable ways.

My dear @marketsurfer: If you don't believe that [what you said above], then you should not be trading period -- does not matter if its is System Trading or Price Action. What you said you find difficult to believe is the premise for speculation -- be it Quant based pair trading based on Ornstein–Uhlenbeck process or the lowly Price Action.

I also have issues with your belief thats its political for finance PhD to subscribe to random walk. The reason most do is thats what the evidence indicates.
(1) Evidence does not indicate that the market is a random walk. Markets exhibit power law distribution. It is NOT random. Physicists keep pounding this point, economists 'conveniently' ignore it although they know what the Physicists are saying is true! You haven't been in academia; you don't understand the politics.

(2) EMH, in its strong form, says no profits based on market timing is possible. Does not matter if you use a System Trading approach or any other approach.

Ok, I have spent way too much time here ...... I am not trading today due to prior commitments, but even then this is way too much time to be monkeying here.

All the best.

Regards,
Monoid.
 
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My dear @marketsurfer: If you don't believe that [what you said above], then you should not be trading period -- does not matter if its is System Trading or Price Action. What you said you find difficult to believe is the premise for speculation -- be it Quant based pair trading based on Ornstein–Uhlenbeck process or the lowly Price Action.


(1) Evidence does not indicate that the market is a random walk. Markets exhibit power law distribution. It is NOT random. Physicists keep pounding this point, economists 'conveniently' ignore it although they know what the Physicists are saying is true! You haven't been in academia; you don't understand the politics.

(2) EMH, in its strong form, says no profits based on market timing is possible. Does not matter if you use a System Trading approach or any other approach.

Ok, I have spent way too much time here ...... I am not trading today due to prior commitments, but even then this is way too much time to be mokeying here.

All the best.

Regards,
Monoid.

Ok--- i am very familiar with academics -- my wife is a finance PhD-- and i have some graduate studies completed.

I disagree about not trading. There are many ways to profit from markets wothout needing repeatable price patterns that dont even exist before they form. Peace
 
There are a select few who regularly profit from their involvement
in organized markets, and there is the great ma jor ity of people
who do not. Among the points which distinguish successf ul
traders and investors on one hand from the vast ma jority of market
participants and most of the academic community on the other, are the
acceptance by the latter group of the notion of organized markets as a
random walk, and the ability to distinguish organized from unorgan
ized markets because of the so-called "efficient market" theory.

The most important - yet simplistic - implication of market logic
is that anyone can now locate value in an organized (or in fa ct any)
market. Thus, one can determine when price is below value, at value
or above it. Armed with this inf ormation, so long as one has the other
requi site characteristics, one can join the ranks of the few who make
money consistently in the organized markets. A secondary implication
of market logic must ther efore be that it ref utes both the random walk
and efficient market theories currently in vogue among the ma jority of
the academic community. Consider each of these long-accepted theo
ries regar ding market activity.

The theory of price fluctuation as a random walk (and the term itself)
has been used for centuries. There are numerous definitions of ra ndom
walk, and each definition varies in shades depending on who is doing
the defining. According to Robert Hagin 's Dow Jones-Irwin Guide to
Modern Portfolio Theory
, random walk is a term used in mathematics
and statistics to describe a process in which successive changes are
statistically independent. A random walk implies (that the market's
price displays) no discernible pattern of tra vel. The size and dir ection
of the next step cannot be predicted from the size and direction of the
last or even fr om all previous steps. The serial correlation is (f unc
tionally) zero. In other words, the random walk theory holds that it is
impossible to predict tomorr ow's price changes based on what has
occurred today.

One of the central points developed throughout this book is that all
markets operate similarly and are motivated by the same principles,
and that anyone who can understand these principles - plus observe
and record the individual characteristics of the specific market - and
can employ a sound trading strategy and discipline himself, can profit
handsomely from any market. Thus, a central thesis of market logic is
that there is little distinction between organized or exchange-traded
markets such as stocks, futures, options, etc. , and all other so-called
"unorganized" markets where no federally regulated exchange floor
exists. (Certainly the exchange-traded markets often of fer a narrower
bid-ask spread, thus creating a higher degr ee of liq uidity and hence
lowering transaction costs as compared to those of unorganized mar
kets .)

Every market is an auction market, either passive or active. In a
passive auction, the individual does not take part in an active negoti
ating process but selects from products offered at dif ferent prices which
make up the range. In an active auction, participants negotiate the
range . Whether the auction is passive or active, all markets •• auction"
or trend up and down in order to fulf ill their purpose, to facilitate trade.
In an auction, prices do not develop ra ndomly, but rather to fulfill the
purpose of the auction.

The purpose of any market is to facilitate trade. Lack of trade
fa cilitation inevitably causes price to move. This price movement
behavior is as true in the organized markets as it is in a grocery store
or any other everyday market. Thus, price changes to sati sfy the
condition of the market and every price is a result of the condition of
the market. The fact that price moves for a specific reason further
precludes price from developing in a random manner.

Furthermore, prices are not stati stically independent of each other.
Price, in moving to satisfy the condition of the market, provides an
inf ormational flow. In other words, markets must generate trade, and
in doing so, prices fluctuate, generating inf orm ation about where trade
is being conducted and where it is not. This inf ormation is valuable to
the market participant, as we shall soon demonstrate. But true
randomness does not generate valuable information. In other words, in
statistically random situations, knowledge of the present is not impor
tant, for it conveys no advantage. If knowledge of the present structure
of a market is important and does convey an advantage - as we shall
see in later chapters - a market cannot be a random walk.

--Steidlmayer
 
There are a select few who regularly profit from their involvement
in organized markets, and there is the great ma jor ity of people
who do not. Among the points which distinguish successf ul
traders and investors on one hand from the vast ma jority of market
participants and most of the academic community on the other, are the
acceptance by the latter group of the notion of organized markets as a
random walk, and the ability to distinguish organized from unorgan
ized markets because of the so-called "efficient market" theory.

The most important - yet simplistic - implication of market logic
is that anyone can now locate value in an organized (or in fa ct any)
market. Thus, one can determine when price is below value, at value
or above it. Armed with this inf ormation, so long as one has the other
requi site characteristics, one can join the ranks of the few who make
money consistently in the organized markets. A secondary implication
of market logic must ther efore be that it ref utes both the random walk
and efficient market theories currently in vogue among the ma jority of
the academic community. Consider each of these long-accepted theo
ries regar ding market activity.

The theory of price fluctuation as a random walk (and the term itself)
has been used for centuries. There are numerous definitions of ra ndom
walk, and each definition varies in shades depending on who is doing
the defining. According to Robert Hagin 's Dow Jones-Irwin Guide to
Modern Portfolio Theory
, random walk is a term used in mathematics
and statistics to describe a process in which successive changes are
statistically independent. A random walk implies (that the market's
price displays) no discernible pattern of tra vel. The size and dir ection
of the next step cannot be predicted from the size and direction of the
last or even fr om all previous steps. The serial correlation is (f unc
tionally) zero. In other words, the random walk theory holds that it is
impossible to predict tomorr ow's price changes based on what has
occurred today.

One of the central points developed throughout this book is that all
markets operate similarly and are motivated by the same principles,
and that anyone who can understand these principles - plus observe
and record the individual characteristics of the specific market - and
can employ a sound trading strategy and discipline himself, can profit
handsomely from any market. Thus, a central thesis of market logic is
that there is little distinction between organized or exchange-traded
markets such as stocks, futures, options, etc. , and all other so-called
"unorganized" markets where no federally regulated exchange floor
exists. (Certainly the exchange-traded markets often of fer a narrower
bid-ask spread, thus creating a higher degr ee of liq uidity and hence
lowering transaction costs as compared to those of unorganized mar
kets .)

Every market is an auction market, either passive or active. In a
passive auction, the individual does not take part in an active negoti
ating process but selects from products offered at dif ferent prices which
make up the range. In an active auction, participants negotiate the
range . Whether the auction is passive or active, all markets •• auction"
or trend up and down in order to fulf ill their purpose, to facilitate trade.
In an auction, prices do not develop ra ndomly, but rather to fulfill the
purpose of the auction.

The purpose of any market is to facilitate trade. Lack of trade
fa cilitation inevitably causes price to move. This price movement
behavior is as true in the organized markets as it is in a grocery store
or any other everyday market. Thus, price changes to sati sfy the
condition of the market and every price is a result of the condition of
the market. The fact that price moves for a specific reason further
precludes price from developing in a random manner.

Furthermore, prices are not stati stically independent of each other.
Price, in moving to satisfy the condition of the market, provides an
inf ormational flow. In other words, markets must generate trade, and
in doing so, prices fluctuate, generating inf orm ation about where trade
is being conducted and where it is not. This inf ormation is valuable to
the market participant, as we shall soon demonstrate. But true
randomness does not generate valuable information. In other words, in
statistically random situations, knowledge of the present is not impor
tant, for it conveys no advantage. If knowledge of the present structure
of a market is important and does convey an advantage - as we shall
see in later chapters - a market cannot be a random walk.

--Steidlmayer

Have you not an original thought? But that's ok--- answer how many upmoves or series of moves or whatever kind of move increase the odds that the next move or series will be in the same or opposite direction. You can not--- therefore all your rhetoric is nonsensicial. surf
 
Have you not an original thought? But that's ok--- answer how many upmoves or series of moves or whatever kind of move increase the odds that the next move or series will be in the same or opposite direction. You can not--- therefore all your rhetoric is nonsensicial. surf

One could ask the same of you, as you continue to spout the same old tired "random market theory" baloney.
 
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