FTX files chapter 11

[NoahA]

crypto has to rewrite 500 years of economic lessons before it will work.

Thanks for checking out the link and following up...

I honestly don't see how the current system is going to survive, so maybe crypto doesn't have to do much. The economy can now only function on perpetual handouts, never mind these high interest rates. But from what I read, this rates are not sustainable even for the government because the costs, as the treasuries are being rolled over, are far too high for the tax receipts coming in. If money has to be borrowed to pay these rates, well, we are back to a QE like program and money printing, even though the printer they need to keep off in order to bring inflation down.

Basically, this level of debt from what I read is past the level of what can be managed. The magic number was something like 130% debt to GDP that no country has ever been able to recover from. So if you can't print because you're trying to control inflation, and if the economy can't survive without printing and giving away more money than you bring in, what is the solution? There really isn't one.

Bitcoin has a very specific inflation schedule, so it gives that stable inflation you talk about. But from what I read, all the productivity increases past the 70's should have resulted in quality of life improving for most people and shorter work weeks. But instead we have the majority that can't make ends meet after working 2 jobs. All the money went somewhere, and I even have to question if inflation is necessary. Lots of people say no. Inflation is only necessary because of a debt based system. Maybe the next 500 years will be based on something else, and not a debt based system that is eventually designed to blow up with certainty.

 

[newwurldmn]

Thanks for checking out the link and following up...

I honestly don't see how the current system is going to survive, so maybe crypto doesn't have to do much. The economy can now only function on perpetual handouts, never mind these high interest rates. But from what I read, this rates are not sustainable even for the government because the costs, as the treasuries are being rolled over, are far too high for the tax receipts coming in. If money has to be borrowed to pay these rates, well, we are back to a QE like program and money printing, even though the printer they need to keep off in order to bring inflation down.

Basically, this level of debt from what I read is past the level of what can be managed. The magic number was something like 130% debt to GDP that no country has ever been able to recover from. So if you can't print because you're trying to control inflation, and if the economy can't survive without printing and giving away more money than you bring in, what is the solution? There really isn't one.

Bitcoin has a very specific inflation schedule, so it gives that stable inflation you talk about. But from what I read, all the productivity increases past the 70's should have resulted in quality of life improving for most people and shorter work weeks. But instead we have the majority that can't make ends meet after working 2 jobs. All the money went somewhere, and I even have to question if inflation is necessary. Lots of people say no. Inflation is only necessary because of a debt based system. Maybe the next 500 years will be based on something else, and not a debt based system that is eventually designed to blow up with certainty.

Reagonomics and a report from McKinsey that said CEOs are responsible for a lot of the wealth creation and should be paid handsomely are the reasons wealth inequality has increased. Globalization has also contributed. But I believe wealth inequality is a natural order of things. Some people are better at making money than others and as they make more money, it is even easier for them to make more. I don't think crypto will change that. American's live in one of the most egalitarian societies in the history of humanity.

I do believe blockchain will end credit cards, swift, checks, and wire transfers. I fail to see how crypto will change anything else. And while i believe smart contracts will change the world, I don't see why the price of Ethereum should go up for it. I don't see why digital anything should have scarcity value.

 

[engineering]

This is what you don't understand. Why do we need audits if everyone has bitcoin and the blockchain can verify exactly if you have what you say you do?

HAHAHAHAHA!

What's the title of this thread again?

Crypto businesses are dropping like files. Be we don't need any of those darn audits, transparency or regulation! /sarc

It amazes how people think Bitcoin is going to replace everything and fix everything , but they haven't thought through even basic uses.

Let's say you want to buy a house... with Bitcoin in your "cold storage*. Do you think some dumbass is going to transfer the title to you BEFORE you make your irrevocable Bitcoin transfer? Are you stupid enough that you're going to transfer the Bitcoin before you get title?
Well look at that, it seems like you need a third party intermediary. But how do you know they won't run off with your money?
Oh, I guess you need all that stuff I'm talking about after all.

 

[Sprout]

HAHAHAHAHA!

What's the title of this thread again?

Crypto businesses are dropping like files. Be we don't need any of those darn audits, transparency or regulation! /sarc

It amazes how people think Bitcoin is going to replace everything and fix everything , but they haven't thought through even basic uses.

Let's say you want to buy a house... with Bitcoin in your "cold storage*. Do you think some dumbass is going to transfer the title to you BEFORE you make your irrevocable Bitcoin transfer? Are you stupid enough that you're going to transfer the Bitcoin before you get title?
Well look at that, it seems like you need a third party intermediary. But how do you know they won't run off with your money?
Oh, I guess you need all that stuff I'm talking about after all.

Multi-sig and traditional title officers for the win.

 

[NoahA]

Reagonomics and a report from McKinsey that said CEOs are responsible for a lot of the wealth creation and should be paid handsomely are the reasons wealth inequality has increased. Globalization has also contributed. But I believe wealth inequality is a natural order of things. Some people are better at making money than others and as they make more money, it is even easier for them to make more. I don't think crypto will change that. American's live in one of the most egalitarian societies in the history of humanity.

I do believe blockchain will end credit cards, swift, checks, and wire transfers. I fail to see how crypto will change anything else. And while i believe smart contracts will change the world, I don't see why the price of Ethereum should go up for it. I don't see why digital anything should have scarcity value.

I think there are enough nuances that will take this in a different direction.

For example, I remember when I learned about the argument that the taxpayer subsidizes Walmart shareholders. What???? Yes, I said it right. Its because Walmart pays employees so little that most need to be on food stamps in order to make ends meet at the end of the month. Since its easy with fiat currencies to print them, governments use this approach to plug any holes in social welfare or justice issues. If people working for Walmart did actually go hungry, how would this look for Walmart? How would this affect Walmart employees? Would they continue to accept this wage or fight harder for more money?

Time and time again the government just prints money to clean up issues that it starts. We have all heard the phrase "privatize profits and socialize losses" and this is exactly what happens time and time again. We don't actually have free market capitalism. But on a bitcoin standard, where governments couldn't print up money, where they had to spend only what they collect in taxes, we wouldn't have these business professionals working the system. Access to capital would be difficult, and although innovation might slow down, what's the big deal? What is human civilization rushing towards anyway? Maybe we wouldn't have the internet yet and just be still at the tv and radio stage, which isn't really so bad.

So I do believe that this slight tweek would make all the difference. I like this phrase from the bitcoin stuff that I follow on twitter.

"Abudance in money creates scarcity everywhere else. Scarcity in money creates abundance everywhere else".

When you think about this, it makes a lot of sense. We saw how dishing out money to everyone just made them sit at home and order stuff. But if money was scarce, people would be willing to work hard just to get a small piece of it.

 

[NoahA]

HAHAHAHAHA!

What's the title of this thread again?

Crypto businesses are dropping like files. Be we don't need any of those darn audits, transparency or regulation! /sarc

It amazes how people think Bitcoin is going to replace everything and fix everything , but they haven't thought through even basic uses.

Let's say you want to buy a house... with Bitcoin in your "cold storage*. Do you think some dumbass is going to transfer the title to you BEFORE you make your irrevocable Bitcoin transfer? Are you stupid enough that you're going to transfer the Bitcoin before you get title?
Well look at that, it seems like you need a third party intermediary. But how do you know they won't run off with your money?
Oh, I guess you need all that stuff I'm talking about after all.

Sure, you raise a good point. Somewhere there is going to need to be an intermediary when you mix the digital world with the physical world. Perhaps there will be insurance to safeguard against this sort of thing. Much like each sailing of a container ship has insurance incase it sinks on this one voyage, everyone will buy a bit of insurance to cover the unlikely event that a transaction only completes for half of it.

Or doesn't an escrow service already do this? You establish with a company that has a track record that will hold both the bitcoin and the deed, and do the exchange. Clearly teh company can run off with both, but it wouldn't be in business for long.

Either way, these are simple things that can be worked out. The fact that you're imagining a world now with hard money that cannot be manipulated is a good thing!

 

[The_Krakenite]

Look at the ridiculous raise in CEO pay over the decades. And they are NOT being rewarded here anything they deserve. I can show you an infinite amount of failing and failed zombie companies that just go bank-rupt, and yet the CEO STILL takes home millions a year in salary for doing such a fine outstanding job... and that doesn't even include the golden parachute they get.

Meanwhile, the workers are doing minimum wage which is still poverty level, while the 1% doesn't even know what to do with all their $.

 

[NoahA]

Look at the ridiculous raise in CEO pay over the decades. And they are NOT being rewarded here anything they deserve. I can show you an infinite amount of failing and failed zombie companies that just go bank-rupt, and yet the CEO STILL takes home millions a year in salary for doing such a fine outstanding job... and that doesn't even include the golden parachute they get.

Meanwhile, the workers are doing minimum wage which is still poverty level, while the 1% doesn't even know what to do with all their $.

Honestly, I don't mind at all. CEO pay is a function of the free market. If shareholders don't mind, there should be no regulation around this.

But the problem is that these business aren't operating in a free market capitalist environment. ZIRP policy for over a decade kept horrible companies afloat. Housing turning into an asset bubble is because of the inflation that ran rampant but was hidden through CPI prints that were adjusted long ago on how they would be measured. Basically, since 2007, the entire financial system has been broken, and this has been hidden.

So on the front, you've got what appears to be a functioning economy, so business pay CEOs handsomely, but in the back, you find that its all a broken mess. If the governments didn't interfere, business would have died, CEO's would have to prove their worth, income inequality wouldn't get to the levels where it is, and CEO pay would be a better reflection of their value to the company.

 

[maxinger]

Where is the list of top 20 FTX creditors?