Front Running, Flash Orders, or Blackbox/Algorithmic Manipulation?

Quote from stock777:

lol, looking at the 1 min CL chart, looks just like everything else. u expect 1 cent moves in this?

my suggestion, seriously, is trade SIRI
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I really don't know what you are looking at but you are dead wrong. The es, nq, even the ym did not have the moves cl did.

Nq was in about a 13-15 slow point move, es about the same while cl from yesterday is over 4 dollars. The majority of the move in Nq, ES was premarket. So based upon your statement you obviously can not read a chart or you don't trade.

Cl moves 30-50 points per candle once it breaks out, today cl moves at the times noted we larger with cl moving over 50 on several candles resulting in a move over a dollar with cl being up over 4 dollars in total.
Please provide us the charts you see showing the other futures moving even close to that today. I would bet you are not even looking at cl but some stock?

You should really think before you type. You are the one who looks like the fool, fool.
 
i wuz gonna say some stuff, but then i realized it might wize y'up,

so all i say is.....

gfy nitwit.

hint: the f is not for 'flash'


in one of my 9000+ posts, I address your exact problem with an exact solution.

happy hunting.

lol
 
Quote from stock777:

i wuz gonna say some stuff, but then i realized it might wize y'up,

so all i say is.....

gfy nitwit.

hint: the f is not for 'flash'


in one of my 9000+ posts, I address your exact problem with an exact solution.

happy hunting.

lol
More...

That's it? Just a few chosen adjectives which make you sound 10.

I now see why so many say to just ignore you and your answers of "in one of my 9000 posts I address your exact problem with an exact solution"

I just hope you don't have any children.
 
One of the major problems of flash trading, which has not been brought up in this thread is the "sub-pennying" that it leads to. When you see those 25.0001 and 25.9999 prints going by on the NASD, the bid and offer is getting sub-pennied by the Algo's.The flash trading practice allows the super computer to see the market order buy coming in, and instead of the person sitting on the offer getting the print, the algo sub-penny's the offer by printing .0001 in front of it on NASD or BATS.

I'll give you an example, let's say the current Bid on a stock is 49.05. This is the best bid and any market sell order, should be filled at 49.05, and the person bidding would get filled. What happens when you bring flash technology into the game is, when the market sell order comes in, it is flashed and the brokerage house receiving the order sees it for that split second (not public information). They then step in front of the bid and fill the order in house at 49.0501 (sub-pennying the bid). The poor bidder is not filled because of this. This happens to me constantly all day. It is especially prevalent in thinner issues. I believe the SEC should adjust their rule 612 (the "sub-penny rule") which prohibits market participants from accepting or displaying orders or quotations in a pricing increment smaller than a penny. The brokerage houses are getting by this rule on a technicality (because they are technically not displaying the order, they are simply matching the market order. If the rule were changed to prohibit any trades taking place in a pricing increment smaller then a penny, it would eliminate some of the problem. Of course they could still penny the bid or offer, but this sub-pennying is ridiculous. You don't stand a chance. Eventually it will get to a point where we'll always have to pay the spread in order to get filled.
 
Quote from tripledtrader:

One of the major problems of flash trading, which has not been brought up in this thread is the "sub-pennying" that it leads to. When you see those 25.0001 and 25.9999 prints going by on the NASD, the bid and offer is getting sub-pennied by the Algo's.The flash trading practice allows the super computer to see the market order buy coming in, and instead of the person sitting on the offer getting the print, the algo sub-penny's the offer by printing .0001 in front of it on NASD or BATS.

I'll give you an example, let's say the current Bid on a stock is 49.05. This is the best bid and any market sell order, should be filled at 49.05, and the person bidding would get filled. What happens when you bring flash technology into the game is, when the market sell order comes in, it is flashed and the brokerage house receiving the order sees it for that split second (not public information). They then step in front of the bid and fill the order in house at 49.0501 (sub-pennying the bid). The poor bidder is not filled because of this. This happens to me constantly all day. It is especially prevalent in thinner issues. I believe the SEC should adjust their rule 612 (the "sub-penny rule") which prohibits market participants from accepting or displaying orders or quotations in a pricing increment smaller than a penny. The brokerage houses are getting by this rule on a technicality (because they are technically not displaying the order, they are simply matching the market order. If the rule were changed to prohibit any trades taking place in a pricing increment smaller then a penny, it would eliminate some of the problem. Of course they could still penny the bid or offer, but this sub-pennying is ridiculous. You don't stand a chance. Eventually it will get to a point where we'll always have to pay the spread in order to get filled.
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Couldn't agree with you any more.
 
any clues if the same institutions doing this "spoof flash"

or "real flash" nonsense are also involved in the same stupid

G A M E of chance in commodities ?

I see this all the time in everything

and I am sick and tired of the "sell ya 100 " oops ... I mean 1

or none ... see ya "crap" over there

:p
 
Quote from Red_Ink_inc:

Couldn't agree with you any more.
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Likewise.

This sub-pennying is what i was trying to explain in a previous post but did not know what it was called. I've had many of positions that i've been trapped in, can't get out. If i put in a limit order, even if it's right at the market, one of these things will cut in front of me for a fraction of a cent. If i go market, it will fill me in a nasty spread. It happens on 10-15% of my trades on the type of stocks i trade. Hopefully this all gets corrected next month.

It's the buyer's and inventors of the flash orders (Goldman Citadel, etc) who have been butchering us all with our OWN trade orders infomation for months. GS makes up to 25% of the total market volume on any given day. They and all of their proprietary market makers, have the benefit of knowing a good majority of all NASQ and NYSE orders IN ADVANCE from their own product, the flash order. The flash orders, in which they invented and now sell to their big HFT and algo customers through Direct Edge is their own subsidiary. I think some of their algo's and automated makers are designed right around the flash order. They are sophisticated "market-makers" designed the cheat traders, and all of the unsophisticated non-professionals market participants (the guy who calls his broker for 1000 MSFT at the market), out of 2,3,5 and even 10 per share on transactions. We just see it a little closer because we watch it everyday and are "pro's". Surely they did not think we would not eventually pick up on it. Or maybe they didn't care because of the power they have on the street.

Just my thoughts.

Is anybody with me one this? And no, not you Stock666 (idiot boy).
 
Seems that the "trading" profit reported by the I-Banks is simply regulator/Market sanctioned cheating allowing transfer of funds from us to them. Their "trading" revenues represent our collective losses.

I am not railing about high frequency algos or computing power as that would be railing about the law of the jungle, but sight of flash orders is quite simply an institutionalised edge taken to the point of it being licensed cheating. Yeah right, I-Bank "proprietery trading".

The fact that flash orders are available to anyone who can pay does not make them an acceptable part of what should be and what is promoted as a fair and orderly market.
 
Quote from tripledtrader:

One of the major problems of flash trading, which has not been brought up in this thread is the "sub-pennying" that it leads to. When you see those 25.0001 and 25.9999 prints going by on the NASD, the bid and offer is getting sub-pennied by the Algo's.The flash trading practice allows the super computer to see the market order buy coming in, and instead of the person sitting on the offer getting the print, the algo sub-penny's the offer by printing .0001 in front of it on NASD or BATS.
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nasdaq and bats don't allow sub-penny bidding, so your info is wrong here. if by NASD though you mean the National Association Of Securities Dealers, then yea you'll see this, but it has nothing to do with flash orders. _that_ nasd is where dark pools have to print their trades to the alternative display facility... you'll usually see these trades marked as ADF in your t&s.


I'll give you an example, let's say the current Bid on a stock is 49.05. This is the best bid and any market sell order, should be filled at 49.05, and the person bidding would get filled. What happens when you bring flash technology into the game is, when the market sell order comes in, it is flashed and the brokerage house receiving the order sees it for that split second (not public information). They then step in front of the bid and fill the order in house at 49.0501 (sub-pennying the bid). The poor bidder is not filled because of this. This happens to me constantly all day. It is especially prevalent in thinner issues. I believe the SEC should adjust their rule 612 (the "sub-penny rule") which prohibits market participants from accepting or displaying orders or quotations in a pricing increment smaller than a penny. The brokerage houses are getting by this rule on a technicality (because they are technically not displaying the order, they are simply matching the market order. If the rule were changed to prohibit any trades taking place in a pricing increment smaller then a penny, it would eliminate some of the problem. Of course they could still penny the bid or offer, but this sub-pennying is ridiculous. You don't stand a chance. Eventually it will get to a point where we'll always have to pay the spread in order to get filled.
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that example is not an example of how flash orders work. flash orders don't flash at brokerages, they flash at the exchange. if your broker is sub-pennying you and you can prove it, then get a new broker.

again, those sub-penny prints you're seeing are from _dark pools_ and have nothing to do with flash orders. i have no idea which pools allow it, and i agree they're annoying as hell, but mark my words, you'll still see them after they ban flash orders. (which, btw, was one of the few ways of helping active traders reduce slippage/fees by getting rebated when taking. it was also an optional setting, so most of this complaining is total crap and could have been averted if you would've just talked to your dev guys).
 
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