From poker player to stock trader.

Quote from GSCO:

Maybe I need more than $400 to learn to stick to my rules in poker. Bringing up my next point, $5000 is borderline to make it in the trading business. I'm sure tons have done it but I would think one would need to have more risk capital than that. I'm sure you could get more from poker. but give yourself 25 000 of purely risk capital that you are fully willing to lose.
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If his objective is to begin with $5K, I'd forget it. He'll only lose the money. Kinda like showing up to a no limit game with $100. And no, there are not "tons who have done it". My guess is next to no one has done it.

Let's look at it another way. Capital in and of itself can be an "edge" in trading. Why do you think there are all these traders on this site using 1 point stops? Because they don't have the capital to take a risk. And who are they playing against? Guys with capital. Guys who don't necessarily run like hell because the index moved a point against them.

I'd say that $25K is bare minimum. Even that may not be enough.

OldTrader
 
Quote from RYL:

To give you a brief history on myself, I've been a winning poker player since November, 2004. I'm currently making $300/ hr. playing 4-tabling 1000NL at Party Poker. I play poker only for one reason and one reason only, to make money. I've also been a stockbroker for about 1 and 1/2 years so I have some general knowledge on stocks.

Some people might be saying to themselves, "This guy's making 300/hr. Why would this guy want to be a trader?" There's many reasons.

1. The richest trader is more wealthier than the richest poker player. There's several multi-millionaire traders. I'd be hard pressed to find even the best cash poker player professional with a net worth of 50 million if not 25 million.
2. To say you're a poker professional is looked down upon the general population because it's viewed as gambling(which it is, but people don't realize poker can be +EV).
3. I want to tell people I trade stocks for living and can make money doing so!
4. From 9am-4pm, poker table are generally tough so usually during those times I can trade stocks, and after 4pm I can play poker.

The only problem is, I don't know even where to start. I have $35,000 saved up and I'm willing to put up $5000 this year to trade. Is there any books or websites you guys strongly recommend for someone like me who doesn't know where to begin? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance, and I hope everyone makes a nice six or seven figure payday this year!!:D
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Do you really expect anyone to believe you?

Let's look at this objectively.

You claim you make $300/hour. Party only added the higher limits about a month ago, so what were you making before that time? I assume you were playing the 200 NL tables? Regardless, that type of win rate doesn't explain your 35,000 bankroll. At that win rate you'd have a bankroll like that in two to three months and you said you've been profitable for five. Which gets to another question, do you even have enough hand history to make the statement that your current win rate is a true reflection of your earning ability?

You say you're a stock broker, one would think you'd have more than just a general knowledge of stocks while you were getting your licenses. Usually a salesman knows what he's selling.

You talk about top traders having a net worth of 25 to 50 million, you do realize that making 300 an hour translates to over half a million a year, don't you? Thanks a pretty good start, and maybe you should set your sites on 100K before worrying about 25 million. That's just hilarious right there.

You also assume that eventually you'll even approach what the top traders in the world make? You have quite a huge ego. Is a star basketball player automatically going to be a great football player just because he's a world class athlete? Poker and trading require similar abilities, but bottom line, trading is infinitely more complex than poker. Poker has rules and defined edges, and the playing field is even. There are limits or max buy-ins, there is a universal rake. In trading the playing field is not even, there is no max buy in, there are no universal transaction costs, and you are up against the best traders and the biggest "bank rolls" in the world, not a random set of chump fish at the poker table.

Poker is a lot of things, but in the end its a game about mistakes. Online poker is so profitable (yes, I play too) because of the poor quality of opponents. The only mistakes you'll be dealing with in trading are your own.

I data mine virtually 24/7 while I'm not sitting at the tables, so post or PM me your screen name, and I'll look you up. If you're telling the truth, then I will apologize and give you props, but somehow I doubt it.

If you really do four table at 1000 NL, there is no way I don't already have an extensive history on your play, so it will take about thirty seconds to verify what you claim.
 
RYL,

I'm also a profitable poker player (thought not at your level). If you can win at poker then you have the right mindset, discipline, money management etc. But trading is a lot harder. In poker we all know the winning rules (tight-aggressive). Then the best players are those who can play these rules consistently, vary them when necessary and read a handful of people on the table. In trading there are literally millions of 'rules' (strategies). Everyone you speak to will tell you a different strategy. I've tested thousands of strategies on computers and can tell you that 99.9% of them are rubbish. The industry is also full of crooks and charlatans who are willing to sell you their strategies - but of course they make their money from selling strategies, not from trading.

To succeed you will need to find real traders, who can prove they are making money, and are willing to share their successful strategies with you. That's the hard bit.

Good luck.
 
Quote from ChicagoSaint:

Do you really expect anyone to believe you?

Let's look at this objectively.

You claim you make $300/hour. Party only added the higher limits about a month ago, so what were you making before that time? I assume you were playing the 200 NL tables? Regardless, that type of win rate doesn't explain your 35,000 bankroll. At that win rate you'd have a bankroll like that in two to three months and you said you've been profitable for five. Which gets to another question, do you even have enough hand history to make the statement that your current win rate is a true reflection of your earning ability?

You say you're a stock broker, one would think you'd have more than just a general knowledge of stocks while you were getting your licenses. Usually a salesman knows what he's selling.

You talk about top traders having a net worth of 25 to 50 million, you do realize that making 300 an hour translates to over half a million a year, don't you? Thanks a pretty good start, and maybe you should set your sites on 100K before worrying about 25 million. That's just hilarious right there.

You also assume that eventually you'll even approach what the top traders in the world make? You have quite a huge ego. Is a star basketball player automatically going to be a great football player just because he's a world class athlete? Poker and trading require similar abilities, but bottom line, trading is infinitely more complex than poker. Poker has rules and defined edges, and the playing field is even. There are limits or max buy-ins, there is a universal rake. In trading the playing field is not even, there is no max buy in, there are no universal transaction costs, and you are up against the best traders and the biggest "bank rolls" in the world, not a random set of chump fish at the poker table.

Poker is a lot of things, but in the end its a game about mistakes. Online poker is so profitable (yes, I play too) because of the poor quality of opponents. The only mistakes you'll be dealing with in trading are your own.

I data mine virtually 24/7 while I'm not sitting at the tables, so post or PM me your screen name, and I'll look you up. If you're telling the truth, then I will apologize and give you props, but somehow I doubt it.

If you really do four table at 1000 NL, there is no way I don't already have an extensive history on your play, so it will take about thirty seconds to verify what you claim.
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That's awesome. I don't play poker but I'd love to see the raw data. Can we chart this stuff, or what?
 
Quote from ChicagoSaint:

Do you really expect anyone to believe you?

Let's look at this objectively.

You claim you make $300/hour. Party only added the higher limits about a month ago, so what were you making before that time? I assume you were playing the 200 NL tables? Regardless, that type of win rate doesn't explain your 35,000 bankroll. At that win rate you'd have a bankroll like that in two to three months and you said you've been profitable for five.
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If we look at this objectively, there's no reason to doubt RYL. Generally accepted win rates in online NLHE are 5-10bb/100 hands, with some players averaging 15bb. For 4-table $1,000 NL, this translates into about $120-$240 and $360 per hour respectively*, so $300 per hour is realistic.

As for the $35,000 he has saved up, we don't know how many hours per week he plays/played, so therefore your suspicions are unfounded.

Apart from that, you give good advice.

* Allowing for the slower play in NL (1bb=$20)
 
Quote from Mr Subliminal:

IfGenerally accepted win rates in online NLHE are 5-10bb/100 hands, with some players averaging 15bb. .
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Do you a link to where those type of stats are shown Mr Sub.
 
Quote from RYL:

I found this place out by looking at the archives in twoplustwo.com (a popular forum for serious poker players). There was a poster who was a member of twoplustwo.com and a member at Elite Trader.com who suggested to take a look at this post---> http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=12455.

To give you a brief history on myself, I've been a winning poker player since November, 2004. I'm currently making $300/ hr. playing 4-tabling 1000NL at Party Poker. I play poker only for one reason and one reason only, to make money. I've also been a stockbroker for about 1 and 1/2 years so I have some general knowledge on stocks.

Some people might be saying to themselves, "This guy's making 300/hr. Why would this guy want to be a trader?" There's many reasons.

1. The richest trader is more wealthier than the richest poker player. There's several multi-millionaire traders. I'd be hard pressed to find even the best cash poker player professional with a net worth of 50 million if not 25 million.
2. To say you're a poker professional is looked down upon the general population because it's viewed as gambling(which it is, but people don't realize poker can be +EV).
3. I want to tell people I trade stocks for living and can make money doing so!
4. From 9am-4pm, poker table are generally tough so usually during those times I can trade stocks, and after 4pm I can play poker.

The only problem is, I don't know even where to start. I have $35,000 saved up and I'm willing to put up $5000 this year to trade. Is there any books or websites you guys strongly recommend for someone like me who doesn't know where to begin? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance, and I hope everyone makes a nice six or seven figure payday this year!!:D
More...

RYL, Bright Trading CEO Bob Bright has the passion and a history of winning at both equities trading and poker. Yet, anyone who has been around him knows that as competitive as he is, Bob doesn't have a need to talk up his own prowess or successes...

Bob has often said, though, that if a person could make a living playing poker for a year in Vegas (i.e. at the tables), he or she should also be able to make a living stock trading.

Where to start (in addition to some of the good advice above)?
This website will direct you today to Bob and brother Don's weekly internet radio show, Noon-1PM (Pacific).
Call them during that time with your questions (as do others) at 1-888-966-0616, for serious, helpful answers.

BTW, Bob has had his $50,000 in for the May 16 grand finale No Limit Texas Hold 'Em at the April 18 - May 17, multiple buy-in World Poker Classic at the Plaza Hotel and Casino - the largest in Downtown Vegas this year.

Hey, maybe your stated trading interest and poker playing expertise could qualify you for BT's free Test Pilot Program April 11-22... Hands-on learning/trading during the day (and working the casino tables afterwards?) for the first week, followed by more trading/learning (then afterwards participating in one or two:D of the smaller WPC buy-in tournament rounds?) during the second week just might be your deal... :D

RYL, you've stepped up to the Elite Trader table; it's up to you to keep playing your best hand. Good luck!
 
stuff on here...

gsco's post was real good.

first, it's difficult to just walk in and make money. you're willing to learn, which is good. you know how to fold with the best hand, even if you're 'sure' it's a winner.

i make far, far less than you do as a trader. but it's my own time, my own schedule, etc. and i'm actually reading poker stuff (out the wazoo) to dip my foot into that pool to learn.

here's my suggestions:

-> when you start, do NOT think about the money. don't think about size. trade in small lots. maybe even avoid the biggest name stocks / spoos futures / etc. why? because those have the biggest and best traders in the world there. when i'm starting my online poker, i'm trying to find the dumbest players - so i can be 1 step ahead, rather than thinking 3 steps ahead. i still trade in areas that aren't populated by the more experienced traders.
-> books: start with lefevre - reminiscences, darvas - how i made 2 million, o'neil - how to make money in stocks. o'neil's isn't for short-term, but will give you an idea how some hedge funds trade. you can piggy back off them. read dave landry's swing trading (or 10 best swing trading methods) for some other things. if you want a psychological book, check out mark douglas or elder; however, you probably know most of that stuff already.
many of the poker books talk about money mgt and pot odds; 2 or 3 to 1 reward/risk is what some traders look for. that's similar to pot odds.
-> remember things usually revert to the mean. honor your stops. rules about overbought and oversold are good, but since everyone 'knows' about these, some of the largest gains are going *with* the trend on overbought/oversold. don't get overconfident. stick within your timeframes. if a trade doesn't work and should have worked within a certain period of time (X number of bars), be super cautious or get out.
-> if you're looking to be a trader to gain respectability, you may want to look elsewhere. some people have said to me "isn't trading gambling?" i usually answer "yes, and the way i trade, itry to be the house."
-> much of the time you will spend sitting on your hands, similar to folding your hands. certain time periods are usually slow (1130-200 est), take new trades there only on a new catalyst / event.
-> being a broker, you already know about the upgrades, and large clients/ firm sometimes dumping into them.

btw, thanks for posting about the poker tables being harder earlier in the day. that unfortunately makes sense to me - and since i'm on the east coast usa, it might be best to play only at night.
 
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