French Gratitude
- Thread starter Babak
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Quote from iceman1:
great post Rs7!
Proud to call you an ET brother... and a fellow American.
It is thoughts like yours' that will keep this country strong and free DESPITE all the thoughtless destruction to human dignity and ideals... that sophomoric, xenophoic comments and actions of the lundy's and other similar misguided souls of this world... cause. Lundy and his ILK... shoud be truly pitied!
"forgive them God for they know not what they do" applies all too well to their type of inferior thought-processing... and obvious limited value system!!
Ice
the same as KymarFye´s type of inferior thought-processing and equally inferior "value system", broadly laid out in the "National Review" - the American fascists´ equivalent of Goebbels´ "Voelkischer Beobachter"
I suppose that's how a post providing material relevant to the supposed topic of this thread will "sound" - presuming that you apply the same mature analytical skills and evenhandedness that led you elsewhere to define Saddam's regime as "yucky" but possibly "not that intolerable," to determine with complete assurance that gaining UN approval for a march on Baghdad in '91 would have been a "cinch," to observe (against plentiful evidence to the contrary) that the Arabs "practically universally" "detest" the presence of American troops in their countries, to bemoan the end of the Cold War as disadvantageous to everyone in the world other than America, and to judge the people of Afghanistan better off under the rule of the Taliban-Al Qaeda...
Well said Kymar.... Alfonso is an Arab-loving traitor...
If Alfonso is an Arab, (don't know he isn't) then how can you call him that? What is the definition of "traitor"?
A lot of people on this planet are anti-American. If they are not Americans themselves, they can't be called "traitors" for that. (Nor, truly can Americans themselves necessarily be...). And being an "Arab lover" certainly has nothing to do with being a patriot whether one is or is not an American.
Don't lose sight of the fact that the Arab people and the Arab governments are separate entities completely. I myself am a Jew and a supporter of Israel. But even so, I know there are good and bad Arabs. Just as there are good and bad people of any region, religion or race.
A lot of words are being thrown around quite lightly recently. According to MondoTrader, "half the damn Democrats" (which means more than 25% of all registered American voters), should be in jail for "sedition".
As I said in the last post I wrote in this thread, the rage is getting out of hand. So much emotion, so little thought. Lundy implies that if you are against the war, you are a "homo fag". This would almost be funny, and it is certainly laughable, but not in a humorous way.
Brother Candle, I hold you to higher standards!!!
We are supposed to be Americans. We are supposed to be free and good and tolerant.
What difference does it make if Alphonso hates America. Or if MSFE/Wild does? Who really cares? What good does it do to call them names? Wild doesn't think, he just cuts and pastes. Alphonso is entitled to his opinions, and as distasteful as we may find them, are they any worse than MondoTrader's?
I, for one, would rather be in the same room as someone who has a different opinion than mine than to be in a room with someone who agrees with me in principal, but is so full of hatred that it gets flat out scary.
Let us assume that Alphonso is a communist, an Arab, and a fan of Saddam (not saying he is, just hypothetically). And assume we despise the concept of communism and all the rest of what he believes in. Yet he is a peaceful antagonist and does not want to impose his will on us other than by trying to "convert" us by using words. Then we have, on the other hand, MondoTrader, who is a good capitalist. Yet he wants to impose his will on us and the rest of the universe, by jailing anyone who disagrees with his politics (again, hypothetically, but still, these were his words. Jailing people for their thoughts is as close to the Nazi solutions as you can get. Short of killing them, which in the case of the Nazis followed the segregating and imprisonment by not that long a time. Just a progression of the politics of hatred. And the endorsement of it by a government.
Who is more dangerous? Who is more despicable? Who is more like those wonderful folks that brought us Auschwitz and Dachau and Bergen Belson? (and Kosovo, and so many other examples that it is sickening to think about).
Maybe the combination of having seen "The Pianist" last night, and then reading Lundy's ridiculous post today has affected me too strongly. But even before last night, I had mentioned that Hitler would be proud of MondoTrader's "solutions" (regarding "sedition", which was also laughable if not for being scary). And on the other side of the fence is Wild/msfe, just as scary, but with completely different political views. Extremists nuts can have any beliefs. It is not their politics that are scary, but their intolerance and their "solutions" that are.
I have not read all of Alfonso's posts (nor am I interested....I am quite aware there is rampant anti-American sentiment the world over). We don't need to fuel the fires of this sentiment by sounding racist and intolerant and, really, UN-AMERICAN.
I know I said essentially the same things, or at least made the same implications already in this thread. But geeze...enough is enough. Wrapping ourselves in the American flag and being completely xenophobic does not in any way make us more "patriotic". MondoTrader is an embarrassment to America and true Americans would consider him a fascist, not a "Republican". Or a "conservative".
Dubya himself would prefer to be locked in a room with Bill Clinton any day rather than a guy like Mondo. Guaranteed! How do I know this? Because he is a well educated American, and that makes the probabilities high enough for me to be absolutely certain. If Bush were as emotionally unstable as Mondo, he would not have been allowed to serve in the military, let alone be an officer and entrusted with flying military aircraft and having access to military weapons, or especially having successfully undergone the incredibly intense scrutiny a Presidential candidate is subjected to.
Rs7
There is no fence sitting possible. One is either on this side of the fence or on the other side.
Anyone wanting to sit on the fence is actually making a very clear statement.
In essence he/she is saying 'I don't care, I won't stop you so go right ahead making trouble and if per chance you happen to do so in my own immediate environment I accept it. Go right ahead, blow up and beat up and kill if you like my fellowman.
This is a deadly game being played in the world, not a friendly game of cards.
To those who are saying that Saddam did not bother us so why would we, why should we, be taking action I would like to remind you of the inimical way Saddam encouraged terror by offering a monetary reward to suicide bombers (none of that 72 virgins business, Saddam is more practical).
As Barak (on a visit to Australia a few days ago) said in a talk : It is a case of 'Destroy world terror or be destroyed'
It is similar to the at one time threat of the whole world being in danger of forcibly being pushed into a communistic regime.
Let me illustrate it a bit clearer for those of us who aren't able to see the situation as it really is.
Imagine Msfe is living in a family environment and one day some bikies (bad ones, not the good ones
) invade his house and take over, threatening, beating up and intimidating Msfe's family.
The local police station is informed but all they do is having long conversations about it without actually taking any action.
One of Msfe's neighbours hears and sees what is going on and kicks down Msfe's front door and fights the scum and manages to throw them out of the house and free Msfe's family.
Trader555 and Iceboy1 then start posting long 'cut and paste' articles on their favourite website, saying that the neighbour broke the law and shouldn't have kicked the door down and shouldn't have interfered.
Two questions :
1. Now what would Msfe say about Trader555 and Iceboy1 's posts on E.T. concerning the neighbour's house invasion ?
and
2. How would Msfe look upon the whole situation when it concerned HIS immediate family ?
freealways
Anyone wanting to sit on the fence is actually making a very clear statement.
In essence he/she is saying 'I don't care, I won't stop you so go right ahead making trouble and if per chance you happen to do so in my own immediate environment I accept it. Go right ahead, blow up and beat up and kill if you like my fellowman.
This is a deadly game being played in the world, not a friendly game of cards.
To those who are saying that Saddam did not bother us so why would we, why should we, be taking action I would like to remind you of the inimical way Saddam encouraged terror by offering a monetary reward to suicide bombers (none of that 72 virgins business, Saddam is more practical).
As Barak (on a visit to Australia a few days ago) said in a talk : It is a case of 'Destroy world terror or be destroyed'
It is similar to the at one time threat of the whole world being in danger of forcibly being pushed into a communistic regime.
Let me illustrate it a bit clearer for those of us who aren't able to see the situation as it really is.
Imagine Msfe is living in a family environment and one day some bikies (bad ones, not the good ones
) invade his house and take over, threatening, beating up and intimidating Msfe's family.The local police station is informed but all they do is having long conversations about it without actually taking any action.
One of Msfe's neighbours hears and sees what is going on and kicks down Msfe's front door and fights the scum and manages to throw them out of the house and free Msfe's family.
Trader555 and Iceboy1 then start posting long 'cut and paste' articles on their favourite website, saying that the neighbour broke the law and shouldn't have kicked the door down and shouldn't have interfered.
Two questions :
1. Now what would Msfe say about Trader555 and Iceboy1 's posts on E.T. concerning the neighbour's house invasion ?
and
2. How would Msfe look upon the whole situation when it concerned HIS immediate family ?
freealways
Quote from freealways:
There is no fence sitting possible. One is either on this side of the fence or on the other side.
Anyone wanting to sit on the fence is actually making a very clear statement.
In essence he/she is saying 'I don't care, I won't stop you so go right ahead making trouble and if per chance you happen to do so in my own immediate environment I accept it. Go right ahead, blow up and beat up and kill if you like my fellowman.
This is a deadly game being played in the world, not a friendly game of cards.
To those who are saying that Saddam did not bother us so why would we, why should we, be taking action I would like to remind you of the inimical way Saddam encouraged terror by offering a monetary reward to suicide bombers (none of that 72 virgins business, Saddam is more practical).
As Barak (on a visit to Australia a few days ago) said in a talk : It is a case of 'Destroy world terror or be destroyed'
It is similar to the at one time threat of the whole world being in danger of forcibly being pushed into a communistic regime.
Let me illustrate it a bit clearer for those of us who aren't able to see the situation as it really is.
Imagine Msfe is living in a family environment and one day some bikies (bad ones, not the good ones
The local police station is informed but all they do is having long conversations about it without actually taking any action.
One of Msfe's neighbours hears and sees what is going on and kicks down Msfe's front door and fights the scum and manages to throw them out of the house and free Msfe's family.
Trader555 and Iceboy1 then start posting long 'cut and paste' articles on their favourite website, saying that the neighbour broke the law and shouldn't have kicked the door down and shouldn't have interfered.
Two questions :
1. Now what would Msfe say about Trader555 and Iceboy1 's posts on E.T. concerning the neighbour's house invasion ?
and
2. How would Msfe look upon the whole situation when it concerned HIS immediate family ?
freealways
It is a moot point. MSFE was abandoned as a child, and has no family.
Can you really imagine MSFE living in a family environment anyway?
rs7, you are too smart for me. edit: however, i find this quote a little bit disturbing:
------------
Those who think that our current state of War is not regrettable have something wrong with their circuitry. While I support our efforts, I wish they had never been necessary. Anyone who feels differently, to me, is either mentally ill, or does not believe in true American ideals. -------------
I think what is regrettable is that we didn't take care of Sadam in the first gulf war. That is called regrettable. This war is making up for that, and therefore it is good. How else do you think we could get rid of Saddam? a UN vote? Ultimately it comes to war. The UN is a joke to begin with. I could say the same of our government, but in times when the government does something right, I fully support them.
As far as me being homophobic, you are saying that I have a mental disease of being afraid of fahgots. I do not fear fahgots but I resent the fact that they openly try to convert young easily influenced kids into accepting their lifestyle. Why don't they keep it to themselves? Keep what? the fisting, felching, shit eating, anal stretching, aids causing activities .
and you think i am the diseased one!!
Yah, they do more than hold hands rs7. These people are lower than maggots, their bretheren that also eat shit. I really don't care what they do in private, but it is openly their agenda to recruit young people who at the onset of puberty may be easily influenced or confused.
end edit:
to the anti-americans out there. yes i only attended highschool, no i haven't fought any wars.
that doesn't mean i can't fully support our president and our brave warriors and wish them victory over the evil-doers.
I'm sure the people of Iraq will be happy once they are liberated from Saddam. I also know that the minority who oppose the war will shut up when the war is over.
I'm not a complete idiot. I know that wars are fought because of power and greed. The US probably wants to control Iraqi oil. And maybe use Iraq as their center for liberating the rest of the muslim countries....
Thats not my reason for supporting the war though. My reason is because the war will result in freedom for Iraqi civilians and one less worry for American civilians. Isn't that what matters? So what if the President ignored the UN members. Since when has france germany and russia done anything for us.
You too should also not be an idiot. The governments of the french, germans, and russians only oppose this war because of money. And when it comes to world opposition, those 3 are the 'opposition' to the war.
And even now, as the outcome of the war is clear, these countries are scrambling to pick up the crumbs, and get a peice of the pie. It's all power and greed... i'm just glad some good comes out of it... and we don't have a president like sadam husienn.
and by the way, in my previous post (which was edited by elitetrader.com) I didn't mean to infer your sexual orientation. I was actually inferring that you were the shiiit that comes out of a fahggots rectume, not that you were a fahgote.
------------
Those who think that our current state of War is not regrettable have something wrong with their circuitry. While I support our efforts, I wish they had never been necessary. Anyone who feels differently, to me, is either mentally ill, or does not believe in true American ideals. -------------
I think what is regrettable is that we didn't take care of Sadam in the first gulf war. That is called regrettable. This war is making up for that, and therefore it is good. How else do you think we could get rid of Saddam? a UN vote? Ultimately it comes to war. The UN is a joke to begin with. I could say the same of our government, but in times when the government does something right, I fully support them.
As far as me being homophobic, you are saying that I have a mental disease of being afraid of fahgots. I do not fear fahgots but I resent the fact that they openly try to convert young easily influenced kids into accepting their lifestyle. Why don't they keep it to themselves? Keep what? the fisting, felching, shit eating, anal stretching, aids causing activities .
and you think i am the diseased one!!
Yah, they do more than hold hands rs7. These people are lower than maggots, their bretheren that also eat shit. I really don't care what they do in private, but it is openly their agenda to recruit young people who at the onset of puberty may be easily influenced or confused.
end edit:
to the anti-americans out there. yes i only attended highschool, no i haven't fought any wars.
that doesn't mean i can't fully support our president and our brave warriors and wish them victory over the evil-doers.
I'm sure the people of Iraq will be happy once they are liberated from Saddam. I also know that the minority who oppose the war will shut up when the war is over.
I'm not a complete idiot. I know that wars are fought because of power and greed. The US probably wants to control Iraqi oil. And maybe use Iraq as their center for liberating the rest of the muslim countries....
Thats not my reason for supporting the war though. My reason is because the war will result in freedom for Iraqi civilians and one less worry for American civilians. Isn't that what matters? So what if the President ignored the UN members. Since when has france germany and russia done anything for us.
You too should also not be an idiot. The governments of the french, germans, and russians only oppose this war because of money. And when it comes to world opposition, those 3 are the 'opposition' to the war.
And even now, as the outcome of the war is clear, these countries are scrambling to pick up the crumbs, and get a peice of the pie. It's all power and greed... i'm just glad some good comes out of it... and we don't have a president like sadam husienn.
and by the way, in my previous post (which was edited by elitetrader.com) I didn't mean to infer your sexual orientation. I was actually inferring that you were the shiiit that comes out of a fahggots rectume, not that you were a fahgote.
Iraq assault triggers anti-Semitic backlash in France
In an antiwar rally in Paris last month, four Jews were attacked by protesters.
By Sarah Wildman | Special to The Christian Science Monitor
PARIS - Noam Levy doesn't stand out at Café des Arts et Métiers, a trendy Parisian eatery that straddles an eponymous Metro stop. He sips his espresso, after rolling a motor-scooter helmet beneath his seat, just as many another Frenchman might.
But on March 22, at one of Paris's many weekend demonstrations against the war in Iraq, Levy's boyish Mediterranean face was picked out as a target. Before the day was through, he would have 10 stitches in his head.
Mr. Levy is amont the latest victims in a wave of anti-Israel sentiment here that has turned, at times violently, against the French Jewish community.
At the end of March, the National Consultative Commission on Human Rights (CNCDH), the French government's human rights watchdog group, released a report that found, of 313 acts of racist violence last year, 193 were against Jews.
"If the increase in the number of attacks aimed at the immigrant community is significant, the quantity of attacks aimed at the Jewish community has truly exploded," the report explained.
The war in Iraq is opposed by some 78 percent of France, according to a poll Sunday in the liberal daily Libération, and the massive antiwar movement has become intertwined with the movement for a Palestinian state. Signs like "No to War in Iraq, Yes to Justice for Palestine," punctuate the demonstrations.
The problem, as Jewish activists see it, isn't necessarily the support for Palestinians. It's the rejection of Israel. "It's become acceptable to not want Israel to exist," says Levy.
Antiwar protesters in the eastern city of Strasbourg shouted, "Bush, Sharon, Hitler - where is the difference?" At protests around the country, Stars of David have been drawn entwined with a swastika.
"We were expecting a rise in attacks linked to [the war in] Iraq," says Shimon Samuels, the international director of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Paris. This year the center launched a harassment hotline for Jews that Dr. Samuels says receives a dozen calls a day.
About 5 million Muslims and 600,000 Jews, the largest of both populations in Western Europe, live in France. The conflict in the Middle East has had a strong echo here since the fall of 2000, when the second intifada began in in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza, and tensions have been exacerbated by the war against Iraq.
The sometimes strained relationship between Jews and North Africans in France, coupled with the longstanding sympathy on the French Left for the Palestinian cause and the movement against the war, has blurred the lines between anti-Semitism, and anti-Zionism.
The trend is also being noticed elsewhere in Europe. In Belgium the Israeli daily Ha'aretz recently reported that the Jewish community is experiencing a similar combination of perceived hostility and of actual violence - including the December beating of a rabbi by North Africans. Some French and Belgian Jews say, however, that the issue is being blown out of proportion.
Some observers voice concern that the recent violence could drive European Jews to be more sympathetic to tougher stances toward Arab Muslim immigrants from France's former colonies, thus further straining relations between Jews and North Africans.
Levy says that although he opposes the Iraq war, he had not intended to take part in the March 22 protest - because he was uneasy over the anti-Israel, anti-Jewish rhetoric at rallies in Paris.
A budding photojournalist, he had taken his motor-scooter up to the neighborhood thinking he might photograph some of the banners and posters that dot the crowds chanting for an end to "George Bush's war."
But Levy, a longtime member of the leftist Jewish group Hashomer Hatzair, which supports the Palestinian cause, arrived at the demonstration just as a boy from Hashomer, this one wearing a kippah, or skullcap, was assaulted. Levy ran to see if he could help and got caught in the melee, in which a total of four people, including himself, were injured.
"They were shouting 'Death to the Jews' and 'You and your kippah have no place here,'" Levy recalls.
A group of men, mostly, he says, of North African descent, advanced on him with metal pipes.
In the days that followed, Paris Mayor Bertrand Delanoe condemned the attacks. "In Paris," he said, "everyone must be respected in dignity, no matter what their culture, identity or spiritual faith."
Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin called the attacks "unacceptable, intolerable," and Interior Minister Nicholas Sarkozy met with Levy and Hashomer Hatzair in a show of solidarity.
The week after the attack a collection of antiwar groups met at the offices of Hashomer Hatzair. "There is no place for anti-Semitism in the demonstrations," Arielle Denis, copresident of the Movement for Peace, announced at the end of the meeting.
The next day, 5,000 security officials marched alongside demonstrators to ensure the safety of Jewish participants.
Levy wasn't there. Hashomer Hatzair, he says, "used to have talks with people from Arab neighborhoods to interact, exchange our point of views. That time is over."
In an antiwar rally in Paris last month, four Jews were attacked by protesters.
By Sarah Wildman | Special to The Christian Science Monitor
PARIS - Noam Levy doesn't stand out at Café des Arts et Métiers, a trendy Parisian eatery that straddles an eponymous Metro stop. He sips his espresso, after rolling a motor-scooter helmet beneath his seat, just as many another Frenchman might.
But on March 22, at one of Paris's many weekend demonstrations against the war in Iraq, Levy's boyish Mediterranean face was picked out as a target. Before the day was through, he would have 10 stitches in his head.
Mr. Levy is amont the latest victims in a wave of anti-Israel sentiment here that has turned, at times violently, against the French Jewish community.
At the end of March, the National Consultative Commission on Human Rights (CNCDH), the French government's human rights watchdog group, released a report that found, of 313 acts of racist violence last year, 193 were against Jews.
"If the increase in the number of attacks aimed at the immigrant community is significant, the quantity of attacks aimed at the Jewish community has truly exploded," the report explained.
The war in Iraq is opposed by some 78 percent of France, according to a poll Sunday in the liberal daily Libération, and the massive antiwar movement has become intertwined with the movement for a Palestinian state. Signs like "No to War in Iraq, Yes to Justice for Palestine," punctuate the demonstrations.
The problem, as Jewish activists see it, isn't necessarily the support for Palestinians. It's the rejection of Israel. "It's become acceptable to not want Israel to exist," says Levy.
Antiwar protesters in the eastern city of Strasbourg shouted, "Bush, Sharon, Hitler - where is the difference?" At protests around the country, Stars of David have been drawn entwined with a swastika.
"We were expecting a rise in attacks linked to [the war in] Iraq," says Shimon Samuels, the international director of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Paris. This year the center launched a harassment hotline for Jews that Dr. Samuels says receives a dozen calls a day.
About 5 million Muslims and 600,000 Jews, the largest of both populations in Western Europe, live in France. The conflict in the Middle East has had a strong echo here since the fall of 2000, when the second intifada began in in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza, and tensions have been exacerbated by the war against Iraq.
The sometimes strained relationship between Jews and North Africans in France, coupled with the longstanding sympathy on the French Left for the Palestinian cause and the movement against the war, has blurred the lines between anti-Semitism, and anti-Zionism.
The trend is also being noticed elsewhere in Europe. In Belgium the Israeli daily Ha'aretz recently reported that the Jewish community is experiencing a similar combination of perceived hostility and of actual violence - including the December beating of a rabbi by North Africans. Some French and Belgian Jews say, however, that the issue is being blown out of proportion.
Some observers voice concern that the recent violence could drive European Jews to be more sympathetic to tougher stances toward Arab Muslim immigrants from France's former colonies, thus further straining relations between Jews and North Africans.
Levy says that although he opposes the Iraq war, he had not intended to take part in the March 22 protest - because he was uneasy over the anti-Israel, anti-Jewish rhetoric at rallies in Paris.
A budding photojournalist, he had taken his motor-scooter up to the neighborhood thinking he might photograph some of the banners and posters that dot the crowds chanting for an end to "George Bush's war."
But Levy, a longtime member of the leftist Jewish group Hashomer Hatzair, which supports the Palestinian cause, arrived at the demonstration just as a boy from Hashomer, this one wearing a kippah, or skullcap, was assaulted. Levy ran to see if he could help and got caught in the melee, in which a total of four people, including himself, were injured.
"They were shouting 'Death to the Jews' and 'You and your kippah have no place here,'" Levy recalls.
A group of men, mostly, he says, of North African descent, advanced on him with metal pipes.
In the days that followed, Paris Mayor Bertrand Delanoe condemned the attacks. "In Paris," he said, "everyone must be respected in dignity, no matter what their culture, identity or spiritual faith."
Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin called the attacks "unacceptable, intolerable," and Interior Minister Nicholas Sarkozy met with Levy and Hashomer Hatzair in a show of solidarity.
The week after the attack a collection of antiwar groups met at the offices of Hashomer Hatzair. "There is no place for anti-Semitism in the demonstrations," Arielle Denis, copresident of the Movement for Peace, announced at the end of the meeting.
The next day, 5,000 security officials marched alongside demonstrators to ensure the safety of Jewish participants.
Levy wasn't there. Hashomer Hatzair, he says, "used to have talks with people from Arab neighborhoods to interact, exchange our point of views. That time is over."