French Gratitude
- Thread starter Babak
- Start date
Iceman, thinking isn't your strong point, is it?
Your ridiculous invective aside (BTW, I hardly drink, don't watch that much TV, I do remember 'Nam, could care less about Clinton getting head - just that he lied about it) when are you going to answer the original question:
Why are you so willing to sacrifice more American lives instead of taking action to prevent it?
Do you not consider Saddam a threat? Can we afford to give him, or others like him, the benefit of the doubt anymore in this age of WMD? Your answer is obviously "yes."
That is the fundamental difference here. You and the other hand-wringers are quite willing to sacrifice American lives before taking action (if at all - 9/11 apparently wasn't enough for you), while I am unwilling to wait for another catastrophe to befall us before going after the motherfers who would cause us harm. The Marquis of Queensbury rules have no place in this day and age, and with these stakes. Fortunately we have a President who understands that.
You are a classic case of cranium-rectal inversion. Now unclench your buttocks, and release the bitterness.
Lightningsmurf yov'e got it all wrong.
I am not a war supporter as such but I do support freedom and am prepared to stand up and fight for that principle.
Is there anything at all wrong with that ?
If there is any profanity on my part it is because of the frustation caused by those Butcher of Baghdad loving idits who bring out the worst in me by their illogic behaviour defending the undefensible.
NO torturing and murdering of populations can be justified no matter how often you or any of the self declared insane leftie poopers state that it is illegal to interfere in the sovereignity of a country.
Let me say this again just in case you suffer from mental block out : NO TORTURING AND MURDERING OF POPULATIONS CAN BE JUSTIFIED no matter how often you or any of the self declared insane leftie poopers state that it is illegal to interfere in the sovereignity of a country.
By objecting to the removal of the Butcher of Baghdad one inevitably automatically endorses and declares one's support for the Butcher of Baghdad. That makes you scum.
Perhaps I am wrong there and it may well be the case that that does not m-a-k-e you scum as you may have a-l-w-a-y-s been scum.
I DO NOT GIVE A FIG (pardon the profanity smurfie) about Bush's reasons for going to Iraq but ................ I am absolutely delighted about the freedom it will achieve for the Iraqi population.
freealways
I am not a war supporter as such but I do support freedom and am prepared to stand up and fight for that principle.
Is there anything at all wrong with that ?
If there is any profanity on my part it is because of the frustation caused by those Butcher of Baghdad loving idits who bring out the worst in me by their illogic behaviour defending the undefensible.
NO torturing and murdering of populations can be justified no matter how often you or any of the self declared insane leftie poopers state that it is illegal to interfere in the sovereignity of a country.
Let me say this again just in case you suffer from mental block out : NO TORTURING AND MURDERING OF POPULATIONS CAN BE JUSTIFIED no matter how often you or any of the self declared insane leftie poopers state that it is illegal to interfere in the sovereignity of a country.
By objecting to the removal of the Butcher of Baghdad one inevitably automatically endorses and declares one's support for the Butcher of Baghdad. That makes you scum.
Perhaps I am wrong there and it may well be the case that that does not m-a-k-e you scum as you may have a-l-w-a-y-s been scum.
I DO NOT GIVE A FIG (pardon the profanity smurfie) about Bush's reasons for going to Iraq but ................ I am absolutely delighted about the freedom it will achieve for the Iraqi population.
freealways
Iceboy1, wake up, where do you get that strange idea that this is an undeclared war. It is a continuation of the U.N.'s endorsed 1991 war because the Butcher of Baghdad didn't abide by the agreement.
(Not that I for one moment think that the U.N. is relevant)
And I am absolutely delighted about the inevitable outcome i.e. the opportunity the Iraqi people will now get to enjoy being free from the tyranny by the Butcher of Baghdad and his regime.
You are exposing and showing the kind of misfit you are by objecting to the removal of that piece of Iraqi scum called Saddam Hussein.
freealways to bash idits and misfits
(Not that I for one moment think that the U.N. is relevant)
And I am absolutely delighted about the inevitable outcome i.e. the opportunity the Iraqi people will now get to enjoy being free from the tyranny by the Butcher of Baghdad and his regime.
You are exposing and showing the kind of misfit you are by objecting to the removal of that piece of Iraqi scum called Saddam Hussein.
freealways to bash idits and misfits
Lundy, you think sexual orientation has anything to do with any of this?
I know you have made some good contributions to ET. This, however accomplishes a little less than zero, other than to give anti-American sentiment more of a boost for those who want it.
It is kind of sad that stuff like this, stuff like MondoTrader's and some of the others who like to think of themselves as great "patriots" only add fuel to the fire of the thinking of those on the other side of the issue. "Ugly American" mentality is hurting our image world wide.
While I too feel the anger, and the natural human desire to exact "revenge" for 9/11, and as well have the attitude that we need to rid the world of sadistic murdering dictators like Saddam, and Milosivic, we needn't always be in a rage.
I just read about some women who was in a shopping mall and was harassed for wearing a t-shirt that said "Peace on Earth" on it. This is America today? Sad.
Why can't we do what we need to do and want peace at the same time? What good does the rage and nonsensical accusations accomplish? Other than to alienate the rest of the world from us? We are supposed to be the "good guys".
Statements like yours, and statements like we hear constantly from guys like MondoTrader make us sound like xenophobic, (homophobic in your case) bullies who have some kind of blood lust. When in truth, we, as a nation, are supposed to be about freedom and about justice, and about tolerance.
I saw the movie "The Pianist" last night. Great movie. Everyone world wide should be required to see it. What the Germans did, how they directed their attitude of "superiority" and bigotry and xenophobia and racism is so sickening. And so scary. And so much like what I am beginning to hear more and more of from extremists like Mondo. This isn't what we are supposed to be about.
I am sure if Mondo had his way, any "damn Democrats", and anyone who expressed dissent, and anyone who's opinion differed from his own would be rounded up and put in a 21st century version of the Warsaw Ghetto (if not concentration camps).
Somewhere between politics of butchery, like those of Saddam, and "skinhead American" politics, like those of MondoTrader, there lies the beliefs of the real American majority. Who want peace, yet will fight for freedom and national security. But will do the fighting with a sense of need and a sense of urgency, and still not ever rejoice in the destruction of any nation or it's people.
"Peace on Earth" should be, and hopefully IS our goal. Sometimes a means to an end are very distasteful. Those who think that our current state of War is not regrettable have something wrong with their circuitry. While I support our efforts, I wish they had never been necessary. Anyone who feels differently, to me, is either mentally ill, or does not believe in true American ideals. Either way, name calling accomplishes nothing. It can, however detract from, not help our world image. Fortunately, not a lot of the world gets to see what is said here on ET. Your post should embarrass you as well as all Americans.
I know you are angry, and I understand the rage you feel. We all have felt it since the WTC came down. But we can't let this rage overtake our good sense. And we can't let it turn us into what we are not.
Insanity does seem to be a communicable disease. Seeing "The Pianist" drove home that point once again for me. We need to be vigilant to help it from spreading here. Our intentions are supposed to be "noble". We really do ourselves great injustice by being seen by the world as a country filled with citizens who preach hate and intolerance of any kind.
What is accomplished by your post? Maybe I am missing something. Look at the totally distasteful post by MSFE just above this. Does he strengthen his position by showing us this? Or does he only accomplish to cause more outrage? Obviously he means to agitate us. But we are supposed to be able to rise above such politics of vulgarity and stupidity. Let the morons continue they are morons. Rise above it. Let's win. Let's make the world "safe for democracy". Not contribute to hatred and anti-American sentiment. Why give your enemies ammunition?
Rs7
I'm fairly sure that "brave" does not include you... you're likely nothing more than a punk coward who never served in a war situation. I say that because those who did don't usually get so venomous about it's 'glamour' and pound their chest like you and a couple others do here. They mght be proud, but they "know" the horror of it all. But I could always be wrong, so please tell us when you spent time defending "the land of the free"?!
And b.t.w I went back and looked at your posts... do you ever say anything valuable on ET... ever? And did you attend ANY school beyond high school? Because you look to be one of the least articulate members of ET.
So then brother... what's your claim to fame? Calling people "faggot" like a 13 year old would do. Or is it that momma got knocked up in the USA where we got free speech... so your figured, what the hell, might might as well open the mouth and remove all doubt that you don't have a frickin clue about anything much! Go ahead make my day... prove I'm wrong... finish a crossword puzzzle!! LOL
Guys like you were a dime a dozen back in the Vietnam days. And all of you were proven to be wrong after you screwed up the country with your "love it or leave it" crap! Bro, did anyone ever read you a bedtime story about Vietnam.... or about the Constitution, because those who ignore history are domed to repeat it. Only you won't lose anything if we do "repeat" cause you ain't got the b*lls to serve and fight anyway. Do you? You and many other war mongers hide behind the flag, but ain't got the courage to defend her.
You talk tough but can't back it up. So... go have another brewsky, watch CNN and get all excited 'cause that's likely as far as your "patriotism" goes.
LOL
Guys like me, despite your ignorance... are the ones who provide a check and balance, a perspective on things... that CATTLE like you will never be intellectually capable of doing!
Thank us bro for truly keeping this Country FREE not just in deed........ meaning violence and aggession that movie-Rambos like you find so appealing, but by 'thought'........ about the future.......... and the consequences of our (USA's) actions!
(now... can you understand that, or should I get you a tutor pal) :eek:
Ice
I wasn't ignoring your sincere post here. You make some valid points. Thank you for your comments. Obviously there strong viewpoints on this one; and I respect that.
It's just bothers me to see people react purely from emotion, get all riled up about so-called patriotism and thereby lose their perspective about the values and ideals (as old-fashioned as it sounds).... that truly were designed to make this Country special!
Any citizen should be afraid, very afraid... when leaders of either party start taking things into their own hands by seemingly strong-arming other nations, the UN and their own constituency, i.e. the American public... into a bloody attack on another sovereign Country with whom we disagree. Particularly if it is borne out later that all they alleged (i.e. about nuclear arms and WMD) MAY HAVE been a..... subterfuge. If so then even if some good comes of our actions and certain weak-minded members of the US citizenry are willing to accept that rationalization.... it is more important (IMHO) to call the (subterfuge) into serious question... NOT applaud that the "ends justified the means... so what the hell!"
The USA is/was founded (allegedly) on more power to the people... and on check and balances. I would like to keep it that way. So although tomorrow I and others would willingly give their lives for this country in an unequivocal attack, I get extremely disappointed when observing mindless armchair patriots sitting at home vicariously stimulated through images, briefings and media hype convincing themselves we did something honorable here, without challenging that notion... at least a little! Government in a free country should always be viewed with a slightly jaundiced eye... in order to keep the citizens FREE! Regardless of one 's party or political leanings.
But IF many in our lowered intellectual climate can now be brainwashed this time into accepting as an honorable mission one that began disingenuously, then where do we DRAW THE LINE next time.
And HOW?!
For once this powerful, proud and brave Country crosses the line too many times, it's hard to EVER go back. Thus we become in a manner of speaking (almost) as bad as the enemies we oppose!
Iceman1
It's just bothers me to see people react purely from emotion, get all riled up about so-called patriotism and thereby lose their perspective about the values and ideals (as old-fashioned as it sounds).... that truly were designed to make this Country special!
Any citizen should be afraid, very afraid... when leaders of either party start taking things into their own hands by seemingly strong-arming other nations, the UN and their own constituency, i.e. the American public... into a bloody attack on another sovereign Country with whom we disagree. Particularly if it is borne out later that all they alleged (i.e. about nuclear arms and WMD) MAY HAVE been a..... subterfuge. If so then even if some good comes of our actions and certain weak-minded members of the US citizenry are willing to accept that rationalization.... it is more important (IMHO) to call the (subterfuge) into serious question... NOT applaud that the "ends justified the means... so what the hell!"
The USA is/was founded (allegedly) on more power to the people... and on check and balances. I would like to keep it that way. So although tomorrow I and others would willingly give their lives for this country in an unequivocal attack, I get extremely disappointed when observing mindless armchair patriots sitting at home vicariously stimulated through images, briefings and media hype convincing themselves we did something honorable here, without challenging that notion... at least a little! Government in a free country should always be viewed with a slightly jaundiced eye... in order to keep the citizens FREE! Regardless of one 's party or political leanings.
But IF many in our lowered intellectual climate can now be brainwashed this time into accepting as an honorable mission one that began disingenuously, then where do we DRAW THE LINE next time.
And HOW?!
For once this powerful, proud and brave Country crosses the line too many times, it's hard to EVER go back. Thus we become in a manner of speaking (almost) as bad as the enemies we oppose!
Iceman1
April 4, 2003 7:15 a.m.
The Train Is Leaving the Station
Will our âfriendsâ jump on in time?
by Victor Davis Hanson
Wars disrupt the political landscape for generations. Changes sweep nations when their youth die in a manner impossible during peace. An isolationist United States became a world power after the defeat of Japan and Germany, buoyed by the confidence of millions of returning victorious veterans. Even today the pathologies of American society cannot be understood apart from the defeat in Vietnam, as an entire generation still views the world through the warped lenses of the 1960s. In some sense, postmodern quirky France today is explicable by the humiliation of 1940 and its colonial defeats to follow.
So, too, one of the most remarkable military campaigns in American military history will shake apart the world as few other events in the last 30 years. Depressed and discredited pundits now turn to dire predictions of years of turmoil in postbellum Iraq. A lunatic Syria promises a Lebanon to come. Meanwhile we are currently reassured that the Atlantic Alliance is unchanged. The Washington-New York corridor, in sober and judicious tones, has rightly emphasized to us all that we must work harder to renew our old ties â echoed by their like counterparts in Europe. But it is eerie how the more the experts insist on all these probable scenarios, the more they seem terrified that things are not as they were.
Something weird, something unprecedented, is unfolding, driven by American public opinion â completely ignored in Europe â and the nationâs collective anger that Americans are dying by showing restraint as they are slandered by our âfriends.â Despite the protestations of a return to normalcy, this present war will ever so slowly, yet markedly nonetheless, change Americaâs relationships in a way unseen in the last 30 years.
***
And then there is the madness of Europe. It is time to speak far more softly and carry a far larger stick. France may be right that we all have really come to the end of history â and so we should give them an opportunity to prove it, to match deed with word by being delighted as we withdraw troops from Germany. Germany may or may not be embracing the frightening old nationalist rhetoric â but again that will be Franceâs problem, not ours. Let us hope that the more sober in Germany can still grasp at what Mr. Schroeder has nearly thrown away, and see that few superpowers have given it so much and asked for so little in return â and genuinely wish it to do well.
But again it is their call, not ours. We do not have to withdraw from a dead NATO, but we should simply grin and spend as much on it as Europe does â and so let it die on the vine. How could we be allies with such countries as France and Germany when sizable minorities there want a fascistic Saddam Hussein to defeat us?
***
And so where does all that leave us? Unlike the conventional rhetoric of pessimists (e.g., âthe world hates usâ), we may well be in a stronger position than ever before. Russian arms, German bunkers, and French contracts will become known in Iraq and will be weighed against Americaâs use of overwhelming force for a moral cause in a legal and human fashion against a barbaric regime. The Middle Eastern claim that we wonât or canât fight on the ground is a myth. And America, not the Orwellian Arab Street, is the catalyst for democratic reform. Looming on the horizon are Iraqi archives, the evidence of weapons of mass destruction, and a happy liberated populace that Europe would have otherwise left well enough alone to profit from its overseers.
The United Nations has lost its soft spot in the hearts of Americans, and is more likely to appease dictators than aid consensual governments. The general-secretary should be scrambling madly before the armistice to win our good graces â never has American support for the U.N. been lower, even as a U.N. resolution has never been better enforced at almost no cost to its general membership. The debate has now spun out of control and questions not merely our own membership but also the very propriety of the residence of the General Assembly headquarters in New York.
And as for Britain, Australia, Spain, Denmark, Italy, and a host of Eastern European countries who are rolling down the tracks with us, waving to the exasperating at the station, we have to show them as much appreciation for their stalwart courage as we do abject disdain for the duplicity of their peers behind.
The world is upside down and we should expect some strange scenes of scrambling in the weeks ahead as side-glancing diplomats and nail-biting envoys flock to meet Mr. Powell in Washington, who â far from fearing those recent idiotic calls for his resignation â will in fact emerge as one of the most effective and powerful secretaries in recent history. Such are the ironies of war.
It will all be an interesting show.
As they say, read the whole thing at:
http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson040403.asp
The Train Is Leaving the Station
Will our âfriendsâ jump on in time?
by Victor Davis Hanson
Wars disrupt the political landscape for generations. Changes sweep nations when their youth die in a manner impossible during peace. An isolationist United States became a world power after the defeat of Japan and Germany, buoyed by the confidence of millions of returning victorious veterans. Even today the pathologies of American society cannot be understood apart from the defeat in Vietnam, as an entire generation still views the world through the warped lenses of the 1960s. In some sense, postmodern quirky France today is explicable by the humiliation of 1940 and its colonial defeats to follow.
So, too, one of the most remarkable military campaigns in American military history will shake apart the world as few other events in the last 30 years. Depressed and discredited pundits now turn to dire predictions of years of turmoil in postbellum Iraq. A lunatic Syria promises a Lebanon to come. Meanwhile we are currently reassured that the Atlantic Alliance is unchanged. The Washington-New York corridor, in sober and judicious tones, has rightly emphasized to us all that we must work harder to renew our old ties â echoed by their like counterparts in Europe. But it is eerie how the more the experts insist on all these probable scenarios, the more they seem terrified that things are not as they were.
Something weird, something unprecedented, is unfolding, driven by American public opinion â completely ignored in Europe â and the nationâs collective anger that Americans are dying by showing restraint as they are slandered by our âfriends.â Despite the protestations of a return to normalcy, this present war will ever so slowly, yet markedly nonetheless, change Americaâs relationships in a way unseen in the last 30 years.
***
And then there is the madness of Europe. It is time to speak far more softly and carry a far larger stick. France may be right that we all have really come to the end of history â and so we should give them an opportunity to prove it, to match deed with word by being delighted as we withdraw troops from Germany. Germany may or may not be embracing the frightening old nationalist rhetoric â but again that will be Franceâs problem, not ours. Let us hope that the more sober in Germany can still grasp at what Mr. Schroeder has nearly thrown away, and see that few superpowers have given it so much and asked for so little in return â and genuinely wish it to do well.
But again it is their call, not ours. We do not have to withdraw from a dead NATO, but we should simply grin and spend as much on it as Europe does â and so let it die on the vine. How could we be allies with such countries as France and Germany when sizable minorities there want a fascistic Saddam Hussein to defeat us?
***
And so where does all that leave us? Unlike the conventional rhetoric of pessimists (e.g., âthe world hates usâ), we may well be in a stronger position than ever before. Russian arms, German bunkers, and French contracts will become known in Iraq and will be weighed against Americaâs use of overwhelming force for a moral cause in a legal and human fashion against a barbaric regime. The Middle Eastern claim that we wonât or canât fight on the ground is a myth. And America, not the Orwellian Arab Street, is the catalyst for democratic reform. Looming on the horizon are Iraqi archives, the evidence of weapons of mass destruction, and a happy liberated populace that Europe would have otherwise left well enough alone to profit from its overseers.
The United Nations has lost its soft spot in the hearts of Americans, and is more likely to appease dictators than aid consensual governments. The general-secretary should be scrambling madly before the armistice to win our good graces â never has American support for the U.N. been lower, even as a U.N. resolution has never been better enforced at almost no cost to its general membership. The debate has now spun out of control and questions not merely our own membership but also the very propriety of the residence of the General Assembly headquarters in New York.
And as for Britain, Australia, Spain, Denmark, Italy, and a host of Eastern European countries who are rolling down the tracks with us, waving to the exasperating at the station, we have to show them as much appreciation for their stalwart courage as we do abject disdain for the duplicity of their peers behind.
The world is upside down and we should expect some strange scenes of scrambling in the weeks ahead as side-glancing diplomats and nail-biting envoys flock to meet Mr. Powell in Washington, who â far from fearing those recent idiotic calls for his resignation â will in fact emerge as one of the most effective and powerful secretaries in recent history. Such are the ironies of war.
It will all be an interesting show.
As they say, read the whole thing at:
http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson040403.asp
great post Rs7!
Proud to call you an ET brother... and a fellow American.
It is thoughts like yours' that will keep this country strong and free DESPITE all the thoughtless destruction to human dignity and ideals... that sophomoric, xenophoic comments and actions of the lundy's and other similar misguided souls of this world... cause. Lundy and his ILK... shoud be truly pitied!
"forgive them God for they know not what they do" applies all too well to their type of inferior thought-processing... and obvious limited value system!!
Ice