Fraudulent Behavior Button Trader

[Hoi]

The Facts:

On 2007-08-03 jtTrader subscribed to ButtonTrader via PayPal for a 1-month repeating period.

He liked it very much and wanted a more economical subscription, so he Cancelled it on 2007-09-03, and took a 3-months repeating subscription instead, which he didn’t cancel.

PayPal informs every customer that this subscription automatically renews unless the customer cancels it before the renewal date.
We also informed jtTrader about this when sending him his password for ButtonTrader on 2007-08-03 and on 2007-09-03. Quote from the last email:

On 2007-12-03 you will receive an automatic subscription renewal from PayPal. You should receive your new password on the same day as we receive your renewal. Be aware that if you want to cancel your subscription you need to do that before day 3 of the renewal-month (because refunding afterwards is not possible).

In fact there are three ways to cancel a subscription:
1) use the <unsubscribe> button on our Website
2) send us an email
3) order PayPal to stop auto-repeating renewals
In all these cases you will receive a confirmation.

jtTrader used none of these routes, while he was informed about it (even warned) to cancel his subscription before 2007-12-03. So on 2007-12-03 PayPal automatically renewed the subscription, informed us via email and we send a new password to jtTrader.
jtTrader canceled after the renewal date, so his cancellation becomes effective on 2008-03-03. Refunding is not possible because jtTrader already received the hard-coded password to use the software for the next three month.

To summarize: The cancellation took place after the subscription had been renewed for the next three month. The procedure was clearly told twice by PayPal and twice by us. The renewal was automatically done by PayPal as authorized by jtTrader. jtTrader received the product and can use it in any way he likes.

Quote from jtTrader:
A warning to others about Button Trader, and subscription payments in general.

Indeed everyone subscribing to any service should be aware of the renewal procedure and how to cancel.

 

[Hoi]

Quote from traderNik:

I'm not 100% sure what 'Day 5 of the renewal month' means since this is my first go-around with BT... does this have something to do with the confusion here? If you buy 6 months from i.e. Oct 28 to April 28, does this mean that you would have to cancel your service before April 5th in order to avoid being charged again? Or does it say Day 5 in my email because my scrip expires on 2008-01-06?
[/B]

PayPal works with daily runs. When you take a 1 month-subscription on Dec-5 then the next subscription-payment run is for you on Jan-5.
Best is to cancel at least one day before your scheduled run. so on Jan-4 or several days (weeks) earlier.

 

[jtTrader]

I would assume you would have proof of the email warnings?

I did not receive them. If I had, we would not be here.

The key point is, if you renew a 6 month subscription, and later cancel, and it is renewed for another 6 months, you are screwed.

Hoi will take your money. What would a reasonable vendor do? Refund, so that they will get your business in the future.

The other problem with PayPal is that you cannot see what subscriptions you have open. The only way is to go to the history of the transaction, and cancel there. If you have alot of transactions, this is really difficult. I assume it is buried there on purpose.

I hope you enjoy the $100, as that is the last you will see from me.

 

[TheDarkness]

Quote from jtTrader:

I would assume you would have proof of the email warnings?

I did not receive them. If I had, we would not be here.

The key point is, if you renew a 6 month subscription, and later cancel, and it is renewed for another 6 months, you are screwed.

Hoi will take your money. What would a reasonable vendor do? Refund, so that they will get your business in the future.

The other problem with PayPal is that you cannot see what subscriptions you have open. The only way is to go to the history of the transaction, and cancel there. If you have alot of transactions, this is really difficult. I assume it is buried there on purpose.

I hope you enjoy the $100, as that is the last you will see from me.

There are no email warnings, but when you sign up for a subscription PayPal does have a warning that the transfer/payment will be on a recurring basis. Up to you to remember where your money is going.....

 

[Hoi]

Quote from jtTrader:

I would assume you would have proof of the email warnings?

I did not receive them. If I had, we would not be here.

The warning-text printed in my previous post, and also by one other poster, is right below the Password. You used the password, so received these emails as well.

This is be coming a joke...sorry but I can not reply anymore seriously..

 

[JimmyJam]

Quote from jtTrader:

I would assume you would have proof of the email warnings?

I did not receive them. If I had, we would not be here.

The key point is, if you renew a 6 month subscription, and later cancel, and it is renewed for another 6 months, you are screwed.

Hoi will take your money. What would a reasonable vendor do? Refund, so that they will get your business in the future.

The other problem with PayPal is that you cannot see what subscriptions you have open. The only way is to go to the history of the transaction, and cancel there. If you have alot of transactions, this is really difficult. I assume it is buried there on purpose.

I hope you enjoy the $100, as that is the last you will see from me.

I honestly feel your anger and perhaps frustration at what you perceive as being "a loss" or "being wronged", but the fact of the matter is that any reputable vendor running a business in this industry will have the exact same writing in their agreeements and the exact same policy when it comes to doing business with the retail trader.

Considering the extraordinary failure rate, and the fact that most retail traders are pikers like you who are going to (incorrectly) complain about very solid business practices is the best reason of all to have this agreement in place ... you have to realize jtTrader, these people do this for a living, they aren't futzing around like you are.

You are 100% wrong in starting this thread.

Hoi most definitely doesn't want someone like you back as a client, and in truth, you really should apologize to him for even starting this asinine thread.

That $100 over six months deal you keep complaining about ... it's the absolute best deal going for an order entry platform for retail traders, point-in-fact, I've seriously consisdered moving my account to Interactive Brokers because that's the only brokerage Hoi does business with ... if they were anywhere else, I would drop my account with NinjaTrader in a heartbeat and move over to BT as quickly as possible.

You are wrong, but I hope you learn something positive from this experience.

Jimmy Jam

P.S. I'm sorry you had to deal with this Hoi, but everyone knows how it is, even if you please 99% (almost impossible) there is still going to be that 1% of losers who won't be satisfied no matter what.

 

[SideShowBob]

You say you cancelled -- then you must have a confirmation email which confirms your cancellation. If you didn't get one then you must have hit the wrong button, or the cancellation got lost somehow. Either way you needed to make sure you cancelled it. There's nothing Hoi or any other vendor can do about it if you *think* you cancelled but you didn't.

If you're sure you did cancel it you might ask paypal to check their records ... maybe they messed it up and didn't record it properly. But from Hoi's point of view how should he know you want to cancel? And he should take your word for it that you did when you can't back it up with anything (email confirming it for example)?

 

[JimmyJam]

Quote from jtTrader:

Why they would want to collect $100 and lose me as a customer forever, I have no idea, but this is what they have done.

I also plan to cancel my PayPal account. I do not see how I can prevent this from happening again.

A warning to others about Button Trader, and subscription payments in general.

Your complaining about an amount which is a fraction of a stoploss on one trade out of 100's over any given month.

That's the level you're operating on here, just so you know ... and everyone here sees it pretty clearly.

So just wipe your eyes, blow your nose, and have your mom make you some chocolate chip cookies and hot chocolate and everything will be all better.

Jimmy Jam

 

[local_crusher]

I agree with jtrader, that this kind of behaviour does not reflect what a probably larger, reputable firm would do.

But here it's more like the small local gym you probably know of, once you 'signed in', they will suck every cent out of it if it's legitimated by their paperwork (and it is in this issue), regardless if one could say it's really justified.

 

[tortoise]

A word of support for Robert Hoi --

I have never "met" a vendor who is more conscientious, responsible and honest.

That's my experience, for what it's worth.