For my Christians Friends

[Yannis]

Quote from DerekD:

... Here's an example to illustrate. Many Muslims believe that if you die in the struggle for Allah (jihad), you will be pulled out of hell and taken to paradise where one awaits x amount of virgins to delight oneself with. Now, there is no known way to test for this sort of thing given that the entire assertion takes place in an extra-material world or realm. But how many people have suffered for this untested belief? A belief that predicates on the validity of Koran...

Don't read the secular media and think that you understand Islam. People are not that stupid, and if they choose that as their religion (talking about those who are not coerced to parrot something some politician masquerated as an imam told them) there must be something there.

I have read the Koran (I am a Christian but like to occasionally study other religions) and found nothing like what you say here. This must be some commentary that others (like fanatical, terrorist types) have changed for their own purposes, use it to snare simple minded folks to go somewhere and blow themselves up for political purposes. Now, Islam is not my favorite religion, by a long shot, but it is not cruel or stupid either. Look at this little list - I'm just discussing the language here and the intended meanings (according to their own literature) behind those distorted words:

a. Jihad really means everybody's internal struggle - you combat your own demons, if you will, and kill them, through charity, kindness and prayer. The battle is all mental/emotional/spiritual and definitely private, although your actions of charity etc are both internal and external. Last thing a true jihadist would do is go and kill someone else for political gain.

b. The virgins some people are talking about (again, I am not sure where this came from) mean the new, spiritual bliss that the concept of paradise is associated with in many religions, including Christianity. If you talk to a serious student of Islam (as I did when I took comparative religion courses at UVA) that's what they say. They never meant to say that in Paradise people will feel physical, sexual pleasure... just spiritual bliss and fulfillment. Of course, most of today's Muslim religious scholars insist that killing innocent people (some say, killing anyone) precludes you from ever ending up in Paradise. The terrorist propaganda is totally artificial. PBS ran a documentary on Iran a few months ago and they showcased several top level Islamic scholars who stated that very clearly.

c. If you open the Koran or its major ancient commentaries and look, you will be surprised by the great frequency with which statements like "God is mercy" are sprinkled throughout the text. But then the politicians took it over and changed its message in a very destructive way.

Of course, none of these statements or beliefs are scientifically provable. What makes them valid is that they spring from the religious/spiritual intuition of many people who take comfort and grow tremendously from them. Maybe this is not for you and I am not pushing it in any way. But, believe me, religious people around the world are as sane and smart as you are, but have a very different perspective in life.

 

[Yannis]

Quote from DerekD:

... what if I told you that the high spirit Boogaloo-shatza is ultimately responsible for good fortune in trading. Woudn't you want know what it is and how it is responsible? Moreover, how you can evoke its good fortune bestowing power? I could show you a bunch of testimonials. And you might bite. Then what happens when you follow my doctrine and things don't pan out quite according to what I said and more importantly how the testimonies implied? Will you not then be evoking the scientific method to determine whether or not I'm full of doo-doo?

What questions would you ask?

My first question would be if you believe this spirit exists. Behind that question, I would try to ascertain how your presence and statements made me feel, if I sensed truth coming out of your lips. True religions make someone more peaceful, charitable and kind - is this the case here? Are there any others who believe the same way? Do they seem happy and at peace with that belief?

True religions do not demand that they be proven externally, only internally, and if you said, here, I pray and then win my trades, I'd be very skeptical.

If all these and some more similar questions came back positive, then, I would say (if you asked me) go ahead and believe in that spirit, I'll never think any the less of you. We don't fully grasp how God interacts with us, why not this way, who am I to say yes or no? I have my own religion (Christianity) and I'm happy and fulfilled with it. And I'm a pretty good trader too. Is there a correlation here? Perhaps...

 

[stu]

All your determinations are made by personal emotion rather than reasoning.

So what? What are you trying to say?

That it is somehow valid to pronounce something is true because you personally feel it is?
Rather than being able to apply any reasoning itself.
Emotion therefore is reliable by some unspecified (emotional) means?

'cause that's what it looks like

 

[DerekD]

Quote from Yannis:

Don't read the secular media and think that you understand Islam. People are not that stupid, and if they choose that as their religion (talking about those who are not coerced to parrot something some politician masquerated as an imam told them) there must be something there.

I have read the Koran (I am a Christian but like to occasionally study other religions) and found nothing like what you say here. This must be some commentary that others (like fanatical, terrorist types) have changed for their own purposes, use it to snare simple minded folks to go somewhere and blow themselves up for political purposes. Now, Islam is not my favorite religion, by a long shot, but it is not cruel or stupid either. Look at this little list - I'm just discussing the language here and the intended meanings (according to their own literature) behind those distorted words:

a. Jihad really means everybody's internal struggle - you combat your own demons, if you will, and kill them, through charity, kindness and prayer. The battle is all mental/emotional/spiritual and definitely private, although your actions of charity etc are both internal and external. Last thing a true jihadist would do is go and kill someone else for political gain.

b. The virgins some people are talking about (again, I am not sure where this came from) mean the new, spiritual bliss that the concept of paradise is associated with in many religions, including Christianity. If you talk to a serious student of Islam (as I did when I took comparative religion courses at UVA) that's what they say. They never meant to say that in Paradise people will feel physical, sexual pleasure... just spiritual bliss and fulfillment. Of course, most of today's Muslim religious scholars insist that killing innocent people (some say, killing anyone) precludes you from ever ending up in Paradise. The terrorist propaganda is totally artificial. PBS ran a documentary on Iran a few months ago and they showcased several top level Islamic scholars who stated that very clearly.

c. If you open the Koran or its major ancient commentaries and look, you will be surprised by the great frequency with which statements like "God is mercy" are sprinkled throughout the text. But then the politicians took it over and changed its message in a very destructive way.

Of course, none of these statements or beliefs are scientifically provable. What makes them valid is that they spring from the religious/spiritual intuition of many people who take comfort and grow tremendously from them. Maybe this is not for you and I am not pushing it in any way. But, believe me, religious people around the world are as sane and smart as you are, but have a very different perspective in life.

Ohhh, come now. Turok said it best, "because you say so?"

Everybody likes to "blame the media" but the truth of fundamentalist Islam is EXACTY as I put it. The Hadiths goes on further about it. There is no hijacking of the religion. Moderate Muslims interpret it differently than fundamentalists in the same manner as liberal Christians interpret the bible from fundamentalists or Calvinists from Arminianists.

What you call "fanatical terrorists types" are groups and individuals who take the Qu'ran and Hadiths seriously and interpret it in a fundamentalist manner.

BTW, yep, I've read the Qu'ran too. Yusuf Ali translation. Read many key hadiths also. Read the Bible and Bhagavad Gita. Read the Eygptian book of the dead. Briefly studied Buddhism, Wicca, New Age Spiritualism.

Strike one for your argument.

Next up, the notion of people not being that stupid. Yet empirical evidence proves that they indeed are. Or better, gullible. Especially when it comes to believing in unproven things and then acting upon that belief. I mean, you actually believed a PBS special which showed top Shi'ite clerics from Iran stating what Jihad is. Hey, did you bother to also find out what Wahabbis and Sunnis think on the subject?

Strike two for you argument.

About religion being scientifically provable or not... I ask that you divorce yourself from this notion of scientific proof as if it's some strange notion of proving things. All proof is scientific in nature as it only implies an acceptable, convincing, and communicable methodology of arriving at a truth. Anything that transcends mere faith and hunches in something amounts to "scientific proof." What's more, scientific proof is like open source software. It's open for all to see how it was performed and how the conclusion was arrived at. Nearly anyone can repeat the experiment at get the same results and form the same conclusion. Or, and this is most important, can see where the experiment or conclusion goes wrong.

Religion is like close source proprietary software. The religious text is like the OS the individual's religion runs on.

So, we'll call this slight misunderstanding a foul tip to left field.

 

[DerekD]

Quote from Yannis:

My first question would be if you believe this spirit exists. Behind that question, I would try to ascertain how your presence and statements made me feel, if I sensed truth coming out of your lips. True religions make someone more peaceful, charitable and kind - is this the case here? Are there any others who believe the same way? Do they seem happy and at peace with that belief?

True religions do not demand that they be proven externally, only internally, and if you said, here, I pray and then win my trades, I'd be very skeptical.

If all these and some more similar questions came back positive, then, I would say (if you asked me) go ahead and believe in that spirit, I'll never think any the less of you. We don't fully grasp how God interacts with us, why not this way, who am I to say yes or no? I have my own religion (Christianity) and I'm happy and fulfilled with it. And I'm a pretty good trader too. Is there a correlation here? Perhaps...

Does the high spirit Boogaloo-shatza exist? Well, hehe, can you prove it doesn't? (Special thanks to Volente 00)

One thing I noticed is that initially, those who are blessed with good fortune by Boogaloo-shatza tend to be greedy self-centered SOBs. But as time goes on and they follow the supplication regimen and realize that the high spirit is most generous and forgiving, the followers tend to be quite altruistic. As far as peace goes, then tend to be less stressed while trading and tend to get out more as they spend less hours researching. Good for their family and personal lives I think.

Ok but I have a question of a serious nature. What exactly is a true religion and how do I tell it apart from a false one? If it feels right? Hedonism feels right. At least as long as you don't complicate by embracing other religious tenets. Epicurus was on to something I think.

 

[Yannis]

Quote from DerekD:

... What exactly is a true religion and how do I tell it apart from a false one? If it feels right?

Scholars who study religions see several characteristics that are common in the great ones, those who have stood the test of time (this is a very crude summary, but you can do your own research):

a. Belief in God in a personal sense (eg, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, etc) or Godhood (eg, Buddhism, Taoism, Shintoism, etc);
b. Belief that we (humans) are immortal beings and live forever, way past our physical deaths; and belief that the way we behave here in this life affects what happens to us in the long run - to fare well we need to be charitable, kind, truthful, generous, altruistic, etc etc, and these qualities produce in us a sense of deep peace.
c. Belief that these two points above can relate to each other; eg, we can communicate with God or reach for the presence of godhood within us in some way, and thet He tries to communicate with us directly or through the teachings of wise people before us who wrote the various scriptures.

Religious teachings that violate these three points (and there may be others too) are suspect. For example, someone who sends you to that busy little pizzaria in Tel Aviv, with this special undergarment, to blow up the place, in order to reserve your 72 virgins right afterwards, is pulling your leg, etc. Just take off the vest, go buy yourself a slice of pizza or two and give some to the homeless guy by the door, that's the extent of it. Pray for peace, do what you can to achieve it, peacefully.

 

[Yannis]

Quote from DerekD:

...Hedonism feels right... Epicurus was on to something I think.

Epicurus spoke or physical and spiritual pleasure at the same time, but he has been misunderstood that he only meant physical. Churches that teach someone to be "nice" have a fine family, a good job, enjoy life, etc, and, by the way, give something to the poor too, are quite Epicurian, imo. Not incorrect, but incomplete, again imo.

 

[Yannis]

Quote from DerekD:

Does the high spirit Boogaloo-shatza exist?

I was explaining to my son, a couple years ago, that if someone who is unaware of Christianity or any other of the main religions, is uneducated and lives in the jungle or in the desert, came to me and told me that he can feel the presence, somehow, of the spirit Buku Buku, I would ask what does the spirit encourage you to do and how does that make you feel?

If he said that the spirit tells him to be kind and generous and hopeful for an eternal life, and makes him feel good deep down, then I would think that he is communicating (in my religious framework) with Jesus, or an Angel, or a saint.

Jesus Himself said that the ones to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven are not those who call Him Master, but those who do His will. See the connection?

 

[TraderZones]

Quote from Yannis:

I was explaining to my son, a couple years ago, that if someone who is unaware of Christianity or any other of the main religions, is uneducated and lives in the jungle or in the desert, came to me and told me that he can feel the presence, somehow, of the spirit Buku Buku, I would ask what does the spirit encourage you to do and how does that make you feel?

If he said that the spirit tells him to be kind and generous and hopeful for an eternal life, and makes him feel good deep down, then I would think that he is communicating (in my religious framework) with Jesus, or an Angel, or a saint.

Jesus Himself said that the ones to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven are not those who call Him Master, but those who do his will. See the connection?

I see by your quotes that you are having continuous dialogue with Derek.

I attempted to do the same, but he is akin to "to a child with a hammer, everything looks like a nail" I then put hom on ignore. He will be right no matter what you say.

He floats weird ideas, and drones on and on. Debating with him is a waste of energy, as he is more loud than correct.

 

[stu]

Quote from TraderZones:

I see by your quotes that you are having continuous dialogue with Derek.

I attempted to do the same, but he is akin to "to a child with a hammer, everything looks like a nail" I then put hom on ignore. He will be right no matter what you say.

He floats weird ideas, and drones on and on. Debating with him is a waste of energy, as he is more loud than correct.

FYI Yannis is having a continuous dialogue with himself, just like you do.

Floating weird ideas ??... you must be kidding. This weird for instance ??


"I would ask what does the spirit encourage you to do and how does that make you feel?
If he said that the spirit tells him to be kind and generous and hopeful for an eternal life, and makes him feel good deep down, then I would think that he is communicating (in my religious framework) with Jesus, or an Angel, or a saint."