Food for Thought: WTC Was Designed to Withstand Direct Impact from a 707 (vid)

[achilles28]

Quote from Grob109:

Think carefully.

Was there an impact?

Yes.

Quote from Grob109:

Did the towers survive?

Tautological and inadmissible for post postmortem consideration.

Science doesn't start with a forgone conclusion and fit facts around that to develop a 'working theory'.

Thankfully, WTC remains were quickly recycled before any meaningful forensic analysis could be completed.


Just like the OKC bombing.


But 'everyone knows' what happened. So this debate is really academic, right?

Quote from Grob109:

The rules and standards were met for planes impacting buildings, etc.

There is a key distinction you're missing.

The Towers were designed to not only withstand the impact. But SURVIVE it.

Thats why the WTC engineers and architects are on record after 911, flabbergasted the Towers collapsed.


There is no getting around this point.

Quote from Grob109:

The rules and standards did not work for many buildings that day with regard to *other considerations*.

In order for this to be true, you'd have to assume the WTC engineers forgot to account for fire damage caused by the FULLY LOADED jetliners they originally designed the Towers to withstand.


Patently absurd.

And their own testimony proves it.

Quote from Grob109:

You will find how much energy was involved at some point. Look into how long it was stored on the site after the impact.

The answer: not long.

If you want to get serious, refer to the WTC Collapse report performed by the NIST.

In it, they cite initial fire temps were 1000C. After the first 20 mins, they were no hotter than 500C.

At 500C, highgrade structural steel losses less than 35% of its strength.


Further, in NISTs' 'worst case' mockups, 500C truss temps were localized to no more than 15% of any one floor.

Think about that.

In order for the official truss theory to be true, a failure of 8 or 9 trusses (out of some 60 per floor) would lead to the cascading structural failure of the ENTIRE building.

A building that was explicitly overengineered around just such a contingency.

Sure.

Quote from Grob109:

Bronks is explaining a lot of stuff to those that can understand it.

I am glad to see you valiantly charge to his rescue. (I would too if the roles were reversed).

But he's debating strawmen and ignoring the best reconstructive data we have as to the WTC collapse.

Quote from Grob109:

The buildings simply fell apart after they were overwhelmed by the effects of the release of energy in concentrated focused places which were under heavily loaded conditions.

Thats a nice theory.

Unfortunately, the NIST investigative team couldn't replicate your theory using pragmatic failure tolerances and empirical data.

Instead they had to concoct a 'severe' collapse model - that admittedly ignored empirical fact and slashed assumed Tower strength - to generate the observable conclusion.

That is a huge red flag.

Quote from Grob109:

A cumulative effect occurred as the collapse was initiated. A gravitational impact of many many times the planes hitting the buildings.

This conveniently ignores the fact the WTC engineers built the Towers to survive such a collision in the first place.

 

[JohnnyK]

Quote from Sam123:

This thread is a flytrap for moonbats suspicious of common sense.

No, just suspicious about why a dark, windowless jetliner shot a missile into a skyscraper in new york, just before crashing into it...and why the subsequent flame burst looks like a napalm explosion.

JohnnyK

 

[JohnnyK]

Is this some kind of test? Ok, I'm game. First the translation skills tests, then the bonus questions.

Quote from Grob109:

All connectors fail because of one reason. Exceeding the limits of elasticity after deformation.

Like after a bomb.

Quote from Grob109:

excessive tension for the molecular condition extant at the time and duration the tension force is applied. Flocking included.

Like when a flocking bomb goes off!

Quote from Grob109:

A cardinal source of such tension is TORQUE in this case.

Like the torque from a bomb.

Quote from Grob109:

The imploding was a succession of orderly bending and putting lateral tension on perimeter connectors.

Like an orderly succession of bombs.

Quote from Grob109:

1. What were the relative times of the two collapses?

There were three collapses. All at near free-fall speeds.

Quote from Grob109:

2. What was the primary influence on this result? Hint: Count the floors above impact points on two identical buildings.

Lot's of bombs.

Quote from Grob109:

3. Where was the most Stress and Strain placed on given connectors?

Right next to where the bombs were placed.

Quote from Grob109:

4. Where was the greatest molecular degradation (permanent and non restorative) to connectors occurring?

Where the bombs blew em to bits.

Quote from Grob109:

5. Are the answers to 3 and 4 coincident?

Not only a coindence, but almost simultaneous.

Quote from Grob109:

6. How was the design of the building done (focus on the floors you have determined in 2) to prevent the limits of elasticity of connectors from occurring in 3? Especially examine increasing size of elements to eliminate connectors in critical places.

The design of the building allowed bombs to be placed on all the floors we determined in 2) which could not prevent the connectors in 3) from being blown to bits.

Quote from Grob109:

7. Re-examine how the answer to 1. demonstrates that it was a foregone conclusion that the buildings would collapse even before the incident occurred except for what limiting case(s)?

Except if the bombs didn't go off as planned.

Quote from Grob109:

From this, determine what records to find and to look at to determine if the event planners gave proper instructions to the implimentors.

Many records were destroyed in WTC7. But Atta should not have called his dad on September 12, 2001 so maybe he misunderstood his instructions.

Quote from Grob109:

Extra credit:

a. At what altitude would flight 93 have to be disabled (open the hull) to deposit the fartherest found remote luggage (7 miles) of flight 93.

At the same altitude where it was hit by a missile.

Quote from Grob109:

b. Who was in the air at the time from Dayton?

Somebody in a white military jet.

 

[BVM88]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6545313046180631815&pl=true


http://70.84.33.210/~infomedi/video/previews/150305martialpreview.wmv

 

[ratboy88]

Quote from Grob109:

Think carefully.

Was there an impact?

Did the towers survive?

Now the impact is over and other things are happening. Lots of other things.

The rules and standards were met for planes impacting buildings, etc.

The rules and standards did not work for many buildings that day with regard to other considerations. You will find how much energy was involved at some point. Look into how long it was stored on the site after the impact.

Bronks is explaining a lot of stuff to those that can understand it.

The buildings simply fell apart after they were overwhelmed by the effects of the release of enegy in concentrated focused places which were under heavily loaded conditions.

A cummulative effect occurred as the collapse was initiated. A gravitational impact of many many times the planes hitting the buildings.

and what hit wtc7... bronx in his big wheel?

 

[ratboy88]

Quote from Haroki:

Ok then.....

WTC 7 fell too...

Happy now ????

So what's your respnse to the fact that I know someone that took a cell phone call from one of the flight 93 passengers ? You know, from 25k feet.... where cell phones don't work, according to the nutjob conspiracy theorists?

Would this qualify as proof that the conspiracy theorists' nutty ideas MIGHT be garbage?

And if one part of their theory is shot down, does that raise a suspicion of doubt in you as to the probability that the WHOLE theory is crap?

well.. if it was from someone in bldg 7 at 5:30 then you got yourself a story now dont you?

 

[Thunderdog]

Quote from JohnnyK:

No, just suspicious about why a dark, windowless jetliner shot a missile into a skyscraper in new york, just before crashing into it...and why the subsequent flame burst looks like a napalm explosion.

JohnnyK

Mr. K,

I think one of us is embarrassing himself. Guess who my money's on?

Oh, and by the way, you never did answer my questions a while back in the following post despite my repeated reference to it:

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1022558#post1022558

(If I didn't know better, I would think you guys were conspiring not to answer. )

 

[JohnnyK]

http://www.unansweredquestions.org/top_11.html

 

[Grob109]

Quote from EqtTrdr:

So an invisible plane hit WTC7???

I don't think so.

There was a fire. (More fuel than the fuel of the towers)

The connectors of the elements of the bridge (transfer system) failed where the load was greater than each tower load above the point of failure.

Three buildings.

Three loads (multi story)

Three fuel sources that well exceeded the limits of thermal eneregy standards.

Three focussed points of stress and strain on connectors where heat is applied.

Same design and construction standards. (Which are somewhat focussed on time limits)

Time passes where no efforts are made to dissipate heat.

The Pentagon and White House survived because of the degree of control exercised.

Symbols were built. No strategy of protection exists.

Opportunity and motivation are present.

The link that will be made will be to exercise a strategy that eliminates the source of the motivation.

Costwise, it is relativily cheap in money and rather expensive in time. Currently we are spending money continually on stuff that is trivial and we are increasing time costs faster than time is passing. The situation is deepening.

People will solve the strategy as an NGO effort as an economic consequence of global communications to eliminate the base causes of what allows disharmony to be cultivated.

I especially like the Swedish solution of taking chairs apart and putting them in boxes and sending them to schools for girls in Afganastan.

From now on everyone should consider putting helpful things in boxes (taking a tax credit); taking them to collection centers (Gates at military bases); filling containers with boxes; transporting containers to military ships (freighters); shipping containers to ports (build one near Afganastan; build roads from the port; ship stuff to sites; build infrastructure; supply training; establish economies and world trade.

This is a fast track solution that is personal. We have Dss without borders; engineers without borders; etc. and many nations have service corps.

NGO's have taken over the environmental solutions. NGO's have taken over disaster solutions. Business just took over CMS. US labor has been wonderful for helping developing nations get capital to their citizens (immagration systemmic failure and outsourcing).

We need an Amber alert system for helping others who have short term problems and then we can go to work on longer term difficulties.

Share your profits with others. Teach others how to make more money so they can share too. Result: more stock exchanges all over the world. More commodities protection systems for stability. Being born poor in a disease didden place can go away quite rapidly. People do what is needed.

If you want to knock a building down fast, apply heat. An airplane full of fuel costs four airline tickets. Building 7 can equipped with underground fuel storage for government emergency operations centers and a CIA bunker.

 

[JohnnyK]

Quote from Thunderdog:

Mr. K,

I think one of us is embarrassing himself. Guess who my money's on?

Oh, and by the way, you never did answer my questions a while back in the following post despite my repeated reference to it:

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1022558#post1022558

(If I didn't know better, I would think you guys were conspiring not to answer. )

I looked at the global warming post. There's a scientist who swears the administration is squelching him regarding his findings.

Is this surprising? What else am I supposed to think about it?

Re the jet...are you not aware of eyewitness descriptions of the jet, confirmed by the pics and film, that hit the south tower? Have you not seen the slowed down video showing it carried some equipment on it's underbelly that should not have been there...and that it fired something at the tower in the last 500 feet toward impact?

JohnnyK