Fear and delusion

[Pension_Admin]

Quote from Qwerty:

But a person that decides to mentor for peanuts is somehow NOT EXEMPT from being able to mentor a student even if he is not a profitable trader, it only applies to a mentor that requires compensation, that really is what you're saying Pension_Admin, do you work for free? are you inclined or do you make it a habit to work for free? be honest now. What will your kiddie logic tell us this time i wonder.

A paid mentor is a knowledge worker. You get paid for your knowledge, not the number of hours you worked (if you don't like it, then just get a hourly job). If you are not a profitable trader whose main source of income is from trading, then your inputs would worth as much as my inputs, which is worth absolutely ZERO DOLLAR. It doesn't matter how much time you put into making your website or your mentorship program. If you are not qualify for the job, you simply don't get hired, and don't get paid.

Those who mentor for free do it out of kindness. They do not take any money from anyone they mentored. Their objectives are to help others out and make a few friends (maybe learn something as well), and not to make money off the students. The mentorship is a friendship, not a business.


PA

 

[Pension_Admin]

Quote from Qwerty:

Quote from: Pension_Admin


The bottom line is, with or without a paid mentor, a trader is not going to be any better off. Most will fall into the 99% either they paid a mentor or not. So, why bother with a paid mentor?

Let the onslaught begin.

______________________________________


Quote from: Pension_Admin


09-18-09 06:12 PM


Qwerty, I already feel that I am in debt to you for your insight from your postings on price action and how you explain it with charts and metaphor--battle between bulls and bears.

Your mentorship is much appreciated, but I really would not know how I will be able to repay you for it.

PA


_______________________________________



Oh, really, well that is news to me Pension_Admin, it does not matter if a mentor is paid or not as you say, because most students will fail but you sure seem that you count yourself within that 1% and ironically demean and at the same time uphold the value of a particular mentor, hypocritically i might add, in fact you're indebted to him as you state as well, how convenient.

Qwerty, a few months ago, you offered your mentorship when I was at a low and vulnerable point. I needed help, but I know I don't need a mentor, because trading is a personal journey. So, I had to turn down your mentorship offer IN A NICE WAY.

I am not that 1%, but I know I need to start paying things forward by clearing some of the obstacles for newer traders.


PA

 

[Pension_Admin]

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[Bolimomo]

Quote from Pension_Admin:


I am not that 1%, but I know I need to start paying things forward by clearing some of the obstacles for newer traders.

Are you profitable now?

 

[Pension_Admin]

Quote from Bolimomo:

Are you profitable now?

No, I am not.

I would ask you the same question, but then I realize it doesn't really matter.


PA

 

[Mr.Consistent]

Quote from Pension_Admin:

Again, paid mentor shouldn't be mentoring unless he/she is a profitable trader as well. Example: you can't teach someone how to cook if you don't even know how to cook yourself. Sure, you could motivate someone, try their foods and give them critiques, but you are really not contributing to their success anymore than their friends, family, or even customers. The keys to the Chef's success are 1) himself and 2) the Executive Chef who actually know how to cook and taught the Chef his/her tricks. Same thing in trading! The only thing different is that there is no such thing as a profitable paid mentor.

So, how much should the mentorship fee be for a mentor who isn't a consistently profitable trader and whose main source of income is not from trading?


PA

What you wrote seems logical on the surface, but in reality that kind of thinking doesn’t apply to trading, plus you’re comparing apples to oranges.

It seems to me that what you’d expect from a mentor would be a trading method that makes money, and in order for you to justify your erroneous belief, you’d request proof of trading results. You’d probably go for mentor who would teach you a how to analyze the market, where to enter, where to exit, etc. In other words, you’d be looking for a mentor to teach you an edge. In order to make money, having a statistical edge is the smallest obstacle new traders have, yet they tend to focus on it the most. Let me sidetrack little bit, and return back to the first post in this thread, which started about John Carter being full of shit;

For example, John Carter sells a Forex course CD in which he claims to that he turned 5K to nearly 50K in 5 month. The clown even shows a statement in the course. However, when I analyzed the statement, there are massive drawdowns to start off with, and then he leveraged himself to get the account to such figures in such a short time. It made me wonder if he ever heard the word “risk management” and “money management”. He also didn’t have any consistent approach, apart from Fibonacci levels. Most new traders won’t be able to analyze the statement in a proper way, and all they’ll look at is probably the starting capital and ending result. Anyway, few months later, he comes out with a book about psychology, risk and trade management. But he'd fit your requirements, he trades, and he showed his statement which was profitable. That he is a hypocrite would probably escape your selection criteria. A mentor like him would be able to show you profitable trades, but I doubt he would teach you to become a professional trader.

Now, let’s take a look at Mark Douglas, or Van Tharp, they won’t show you whether they’re profitable or not, and I’m not even sure whether they trade or not. Anyway, yet they’re mentors and coaches, they won’t teach you where to buy or where to sell, but instead they would be teaching you the “process" of thinking and acting as a trader. By learning from them, you’d have much higher probability of becoming a successful trader, but you’d have to forget about the notion that a mentor has to be a profitable trader.

You see, trading has nothing to do with whether the mentor even trades, or whether he charges money for mentoring or not. All the mentor needs to know is how to think as professional trader does, and then teach you to think and act that way. All new traders are interested in the “end result” (the P&L statement). The P&L statement has nothing to do with becoming a trader. Don’t confuse with learning “process” with “end results”. You have to learn think on your own, and become aware of your own biases (such as this belief you currently have about mentors), instead of projecting your beliefs on the market. Unless you stop this thinking pattern you have now, you'll have a great difficulty becoming a professional trader.

One usefulness of this forum is to read all the contradicting posts, and then realize that everything read can be discarded, and instead take any half decent method and focus then learning to work on yourself and analyze yourself so you don’t become a part of the crowd. Don’t get sucked into the BS that you have to pay big bucks to be taught to become successful, it can be done on your own. It is not easy, but doable.

 

[Redneck]

OP

You learning to trade for them, or you

Move on and keep pushing forward, or don’t – The choice is all yours





Mr. C.

Righteous


RN

 

[Mr.Consistent]

Quote from Pension_Admin:

No, I am not.

I would ask you the same question, but then I realize it doesn't really matter.


PA

You're not profitable because you're thinking like the 80% or 90% of losing traders. This should ring alarms bells.

 

[Bolimomo]

I tend to agress with qwerty. Your posts seemed to have some conflicting points.

What you said:

Again, paid mentor shouldn't be mentoring unless he/she is a profitable trader as well. Example: you can't teach someone how to cook if you don't even know how to cook yourself.

If you are not a profitable trader whose main source of income is from trading, then your inputs would worth as much as my inputs, which is worth absolutely ZERO DOLLAR.

Then you also said:

I am not that 1%, but I know I need to start paying things forward by clearing some of the obstacles for newer traders.

Why do you think you can clear some obstacles for newer traders? Paid or voluntary.

 

[Pension_Admin]

Quote from Mr.Consistent:

What you wrote seems logical on the surface, but in reality that kind of thinking doesn’t apply to trading, plus you’re comparing apples to oranges.

It seems to me that what you’d expect from a mentor would be a trading method that makes money, and in order for you to justify your erroneous belief, you’d request proof of trading results. You’d probably go for mentor who would teach you a how to analyze the market, where to enter, where to exit, etc. In other words, you’d be looking for a mentor to teach you an edge. In order to make money, having a statistical edge is the smallest obstacle new traders have, yet they tend to focus on it the most. Let me sidetrack little bit, and return back to the first post in this thread, which started about John Carter being full of shit;

For example, John Carter sells a Forex course CD in which he claims to that he turned 5K to nearly 50K in 5 month. The clown even shows a statement in the course. However, when I analyzed the statement, there are massive drawdowns to start off with, and then he leveraged himself to get the account to such figures in such a short time. It made me wonder if he ever heard the word “risk management” and “money management”. He also didn’t have any consistent approach, apart from Fibonacci levels. Most new traders won’t be able to analyze the statement in a proper way, and all they’ll look at is probably the starting capital and ending result. Anyway, few months later, he comes out with a book about psychology, risk and trade management. But he'd fit your requirements, he trades, and he showed his statement which was profitable. That he is a hypocrite would probably escape your selection criteria. A mentor like him would be able to show you profitable trades, but I doubt he would teach you to become a professional trader.

Now, let’s take a look at Mark Douglas, or Van Tharp, they won’t show you whether they’re profitable or not, and I’m not even sure whether they trade or not. Anyway, yet they’re mentors and coaches, they won’t teach you where to buy or where to sell, but instead they would be teaching you the “process" of thinking and acting as a trader. By learning from them, you’d have much higher probability of becoming a successful trader, but you’d have to forget about the notion that a mentor has to be a profitable trader.

You see, trading has nothing to do with whether the mentor even trades, or whether he charges money for mentoring or not. All the mentor needs to know is how to think as professional trader does, and then teach you to think and act that way. All new traders are interested in the “end result” (the P&L statement). The P&L statement has nothing to do with becoming a trader. Don’t confuse with learning “process” with “end results”. You have to learn think on your own, and become aware of your own biases (such as this belief you currently have about mentors), instead of projecting your beliefs on the market. Unless you stop this thinking pattern you have now, you'll have a great difficulty becoming a professional trader.

One usefulness of this forum is to read all the contradicting posts, and then realize that everything read can be discarded, and instead take any half decent method and focus then learning to work on yourself and analyze yourself so you don’t become a part of the crowd. Don’t get sucked into the BS that you have to pay big bucks to be taught to become successful, it can be done on your own. It is not easy, but doable.

Well, it was a nice try, but what you described is not me. I don't care if others are profitable or not. I don't need to see any statement or proof at all, because I don't need a mentor. I never have and never will.

Mark Douglas has a good book and I read it a couple of times. The problem in the mentorship context is how could a new trader identify someone like Mark Douglas? How could you even practically find out which paid mentor has the professional trader mentality when you are new to trading? Would that even help consider how stubborn our minds are?

In the end, I do agree about trading can be done on our own. I am a firm believer in that.


PA