You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Fear and delusion
- Thread starter joe4422
- Start date
Quote from Qwerty:
Ah, again the mentor that is compensated for his time is under intense fire, spending countless hours and days to weeks and months to longer toiling away showing the ropes to a student, to only receive a pat on the back for his efforts is a good thing, while the mentor that does it for free is under no scrutiny, i see your bias very clearly. It's not difficult to understand whether a mentor's insight is competent Pension_Admin, if a student makes gobs of money as a result of the mentor's input, whereas the student was failing or struggling before, that's a very good indication that a mentor is very insightful, if a person wants to learn how to play a musical instrument Pension_Admin, is it reasonable to conclude then that the student should not pay for his music lessons because he has doubts that he will be successful? what is the damn point in attending music lessons then? do you think that a music teacher will accept that as an excuse for the student not to pay him for his time and effort?
Your logic is from another planet, it makes no sense, that means that a student is in effect saying that he will not pay his music teacher until or if he becomes proficient, but if he does not become proficient he's not under obligation to compensate his music teacher. There is no way that a music teacher will accept that arrangement or waste his valuable time instructing a student who places such ridiculous demands.
Qwerty, if the student is expecting to become a profitable trader, the mentor need to be a profitable trader as well. If the student just want to learn more about trading, then it doesn't matter if the mentor is a profitable trader or not.
The trading business is unlike the music business in that the music students know exactly what to expect from a music teacher. They expect to be able to play well regardless of profitability.
PA
Quote from Pension_Admin:
The trading business is unlike the music business in that the music students know exactly what to expect from a music teacher. They expect to be able to play well regardless of profitability.
PA [/B]
A trading mentor expects for the student to apply what he is learning otherwise the mentor is not likely to expend great energy and time and thus conclude that his interest is not being served anymore Pension_Admin, if the student is an emotional wreck day after day, week after week, month after month, what is the mentor's motivation anymore?
The mentor is expected to provide excellent guidance and the student has an obligation to his mentor in being diligent, but again your insinuation that when it comes to compensation, a trading mentor has less credibility when he requires compensation for his time, that his time is apparently of lesser value, a mentor that helps turn a losing trader into an incredibly profitable trader should not be reduced to working for peanuts Pension_Admin, get that through your head.
Quote from Pension_Admin:
Qwerty, if the student is expecting to become a profitable trader, the mentor need to be a profitable trader as well. If the student just want to learn more about trading, then it doesn't matter if the mentor is a profitable trader or not.
The trading business is unlike the music business in that the music students know exactly what to expect from a music teacher. They expect to be able to play well regardless of profitability.
PA
This is getting silly...
You are now suggesting there are 2 types of students...One who wants to be a successful trader and the other simply wants to know what trading is about..
Get it in your head once and far all, a mentor provides guidance to the student and the student becomes/is the trader and the onus is on the student to be profitable NOT the mentor.....regardless of payment.....period...
NiN
It is my opinion that trading is gambling and has the same appeal as any other form of gambling, but is even more insidious because of the appearance of legitimacy promoted by the media and Wall Street hucksters in fancy suits. It can be even more addicting than other forms of gambling. And the money to be made by those promoting stock market gambling,i.e., your broker and mine, is even greater than the money to be made by the House in Las Vegas.
The main difference I see between short term trading and casino gambling is that through hard work, study and attentiveness it is possible, assuming you have reliable and timely data, to tilt the odds in your favor. I would suggest that anyone trading keep statistical records that go far beyond mere profit and loss. You must have enough information recorded to provide insight, not a mere record of your trades which your broker provides anyway. There should be a definite quantitative element to your trading. If you find yourself trading entirely by the seat of your pants (by intuition alone, in other words) you are in trouble. On that latter subject, I am a true expert!
If you find that you do not have a statistical edge, or at the minimum, that your trading is not improving and moving toward a quantifiable edge, then stop. If you can't stop you are a gambling addict and trading will eventually ruin you.
In my own experience, most of the commercial companies selling trading methods and advice, or investment or stock tips, are worse than worthless. I'm sure, many front run and lie to their clients just as Wall Street Hucksters do --Here i'm recalling that infamous headline in Barrons pointing out what a great buy GM was, when in fact GM was already insolvent and a breath away from bankruptcy with dire prospects for the future. Sure enough, however, the stock bounced enough to cause many of the Put holders to bail prematurely and long enough, i'm sure, for the Barrons' palls to extricate themselves.
The main difference I see between short term trading and casino gambling is that through hard work, study and attentiveness it is possible, assuming you have reliable and timely data, to tilt the odds in your favor. I would suggest that anyone trading keep statistical records that go far beyond mere profit and loss. You must have enough information recorded to provide insight, not a mere record of your trades which your broker provides anyway. There should be a definite quantitative element to your trading. If you find yourself trading entirely by the seat of your pants (by intuition alone, in other words) you are in trouble. On that latter subject, I am a true expert!
If you find that you do not have a statistical edge, or at the minimum, that your trading is not improving and moving toward a quantifiable edge, then stop. If you can't stop you are a gambling addict and trading will eventually ruin you.
In my own experience, most of the commercial companies selling trading methods and advice, or investment or stock tips, are worse than worthless. I'm sure, many front run and lie to their clients just as Wall Street Hucksters do --Here i'm recalling that infamous headline in Barrons pointing out what a great buy GM was, when in fact GM was already insolvent and a breath away from bankruptcy with dire prospects for the future. Sure enough, however, the stock bounced enough to cause many of the Put holders to bail prematurely and long enough, i'm sure, for the Barrons' palls to extricate themselves.
Quote from Now is Now:
Get it in your head once and far all, a mentor provides guidance to the student and the student becomes/is the trader and the onus is on the student to be profitable NOT the mentor.....regardless of payment.....period...
You are right. The onus is on the student to be a profitable trader, not the paid mentor--especially when all the paid mentors are not profitable traders.
I was trying to let this go easy with the 2 students example, but now I am going to tell you out right that there is only 1 type of student in here, that is those who wants to become profitable traders. The paid mentors know it very well and that is why they all have their website showing how successful they are with their strategy.
The bottom line is, with or without a paid mentor, a trader is not going to be any better off. Most will fall into the 99% either they paid a mentor or not. So, why bother with a paid mentor?
Let the onslaught begin.
PA
Quote from Qwerty:
A trading mentor expects for the student to apply what he is learning otherwise the mentor is not likely to expend great energy and time and thus conclude that his interest is not being served anymore Pension_Admin, if the student is an emotional wreck day after day, week after week, month after month, what is the mentor's motivation anymore?
The mentor is expected to provide excellent guidance and the student has an obligation to his mentor in being diligent, but again your insinuation that when it comes to compensation, a trading mentor has less credibility when he requires compensation for his time, that his time is apparently of lesser value, a mentor that helps turn a losing trader into an incredibly profitable trader should not be reduced to working for peanuts Pension_Admin, get that through your head.
Again, paid mentor shouldn't be mentoring unless he/she is a profitable trader as well. Example: you can't teach someone how to cook if you don't even know how to cook yourself. Sure, you could motivate someone, try their foods and give them critiques, but you are really not contributing to their success anymore than their friends, family, or even customers. The keys to the Chef's success are 1) himself and 2) the Executive Chef who actually know how to cook and taught the Chef his/her tricks. Same thing in trading! The only thing different is that there is no such thing as a profitable paid mentor.
So, how much should the mentorship fee be for a mentor who isn't a consistently profitable trader and whose main source of income is not from trading?
PA
Quote from Pension_Admin:
Again, paid mentor shouldn't be mentoring unless he/she is a profitable trader as well. Example: you can't teach someone how to cook if you don't even know how to cook yourself. Sure, you could motivate someone, try their foods and give them critiques, but you are really not contributing to their success anymore than their friends, family, or even customers. The keys to the Chef's success are 1) himself and 2) the Executive Chef who actually know how to cook and taught the Chef his/her tricks. Same thing in trading! The only thing different is that there is no such thing as a profitable paid mentor.
So, how much should the mentorship fee be for a mentor who isn't a consistently profitable trader and whose main source of income is not from trading?
PA
But a person that decides to mentor for peanuts is somehow NOT EXEMPT from being able to mentor a student even if he is not a profitable trader, it only applies to a mentor that requires compensation, that really is what you're saying Pension_Admin, do you work for free? are you inclined or do you make it a habit to work for free? be honest now. What will your kiddie logic tell us this time i wonder.
Quote from: Pension_Admin
The bottom line is, with or without a paid mentor, a trader is not going to be any better off. Most will fall into the 99% either they paid a mentor or not. So, why bother with a paid mentor?
Let the onslaught begin.
____________________________
Quote from: Pension_Admin
09-18-09 06:12 PM
Qwerty, I already feel that I am in debt to you for your insight from your postings on price action and how you explain it with charts and metaphor--battle between bulls and bears.
Your mentorship is much appreciated, but I really would not know how I will be able to repay you for it.
PA
___________________________
Oh, really, well that is news to me Pension_Admin, it does not matter if a mentor is paid or not as you say, because most students will fail but you sure seem that you count yourself within that 1% and ironically demean and at the same time uphold the value of a particular mentor, hypocritically i might add, in fact you're indebted to him as you state as well, how convenient, and once again Pension_Admin putting into practice the double standard which we are accustomed to.
The bottom line is, with or without a paid mentor, a trader is not going to be any better off. Most will fall into the 99% either they paid a mentor or not. So, why bother with a paid mentor?
Let the onslaught begin.
____________________________
Quote from: Pension_Admin
09-18-09 06:12 PM
Qwerty, I already feel that I am in debt to you for your insight from your postings on price action and how you explain it with charts and metaphor--battle between bulls and bears.
Your mentorship is much appreciated, but I really would not know how I will be able to repay you for it.
PA
___________________________
Oh, really, well that is news to me Pension_Admin, it does not matter if a mentor is paid or not as you say, because most students will fail but you sure seem that you count yourself within that 1% and ironically demean and at the same time uphold the value of a particular mentor, hypocritically i might add, in fact you're indebted to him as you state as well, how convenient, and once again Pension_Admin putting into practice the double standard which we are accustomed to.