extrinsec value itm options Spx Spy

@raf_bcn, well basically any option is priced on the basis of forward/future pricing... which take dividends and interest into account. Depending on whether it's an American or European, call or put option, the future pricing will be based on the cum-dividend spot or ex-dividend spot.

Regarding below intrinsic itm calls...

look at it this way:
Spot = 2400
Dividend = 40... on the day before expiration
June Future = 2360

June call 2000 = 400 (if American)
and just before the dividend you should exercise the call... you end up with the spot at 2400, get the 40 dividend at ex-date, spot at ex-date is 2360... total = no loss/gain

June call 2000 = 360 (if European)
you can't exercise before expiration, therefore missing the dividend pay. On ex-div the spot drops to 2360, and on expiration you exercise, get the intrinsic value of 360... total = no loss/gain

They only sell below your perceived intrinsic price, because it actually isn't the real intrinsic value... since it is based on the future pricing, with intrinsic value of 360 and not 400.

If all stays equal, and the spot doesn't move... the spot stays at 2360 after dividend... why would it go up?
 
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raf_bcn said:
There are huge OI in Spx itm calls. Who are selling them?
What do you think is their strategy?
More...

What's huge? You might think it's huge.. but for someone else it's not.

You should also look at the open interest in the same strike put, or around the same strike... active trading will end up in conversions and reversals... meaning, you buy a call... sell the same strike put and hedge with underlying, this way you virtually have no position... since the risk in that is zero. Totally hedged. This is how professional trading in options work....

And you can do this forever... different strikes... etcetc... you end up with low/no gamma, low/no delta, low/no vega etc... maybe a little bit of risk in rho/interest rate...

Especially in cash settled index options... you have absolutely no risk in having large strike positions... as long as they are in either reversal or conversion.

Reversal = + call - put - underlying
Conversion = - call + put + underlying

If you have a reversal in strike 'a', and a conversion in strike 'b'... you have a box... only options, no underlying position... but again... no position risk in gamma/vega/delta etcetc... only rho/interest rate exposure.

And to make it even more difficult for you to understand... if the options themselves are daily settled marked-to-market, you would have no interest rate risk within a box either...
 
JackRab said:
What's huge? You might think it's huge.. but for someone else it's not.

You should also look at the open interest in the same strike put, or around the same strike... active trading will end up in conversions and reversals... meaning, you buy a call... sell the same strike put and hedge with underlying, this way you virtually have no position... since the risk in that is zero. Totally hedged. This is how professional trading in options work....

And you can do this forever... different strikes... etcetc... you end up with low/no gamma, low/no delta, low/no vega etc... maybe a little bit of risk in rho/interest rate...

Especially in cash settled index options... you have absolutely no risk in having large strike positions... as long as they are in either reversal or conversion.

Reversal = + call - put - underlying
Conversion = - call + put + underlying

If you have a reversal in strike 'a', and a conversion in strike 'b'... you have a box... only options, no underlying position... but again... no position risk in gamma/vega/delta etcetc... only rho/interest rate exposure.

And to make it even more difficult for you to understand... if the options themselves are daily settled marked-to-market, you would have no interest rate risk within a box either...
More...
JR.... hhaahahah.... you are one smart Aussie... I gotta admit. At least when it come to this stuff. Beyond that... anybody's guess. ;)
 
Hi

I am talking about Spx options, not SPY options.
Spy is like a stock. It has an ex-dividend date and the stock drops by the amount of the dividend. The Spy options are american style, and you will not see the itm calls be priced below the spot price, or it will be very easy to make money.

But in this thread I am asking about SPX option. So the numeric example you give isn't correct, sorry or it seems to me. There isn't a ex-dividend date so the spot it is not going to drop after. Actually there are multiple ex dividend dates, every day that a spx company pays the dividend.

If the spot, now, is 2400
and the June future ,now, it is 2360.
What will be the price of the j une future in the day of expiration if the SPX doesn't move from today until that day? I think 2400. So a call itm seller sold their calls
below the price they are going to be in the expiration day.


Again thank you. I am learning and it is very good to have response from people like you.
 
raf_bcn said:
the numeric example you give isn't correct, sorry or it seems to me
More...

It seems that way to you...

If a stock which is in the S&P500 goes ex-dividend... the equivalent amount will be taken of the index level.

So, if a 100 dollar stock with a 5% weight in the S&P500 pays a 10% dividend, so 10 dollars... the index level will drop by 0.50
If all the stocks in the index have their ex-date on the same day... and all will have a 5% dividend... the index level will drop 5% on ex-dividend date... .in practice, they don't have the same ex-date.. but it's more or less spread out... but it ends up the same way for a future.

If before the June expiry, the total dividend for the companies within the index is that 5%... the index level by expiration will be 5% lower than now.

If before the Dec expiry, the total dividend for all companies is 8%... by Dec expiry date the S&P500 (all other things equal) will trade 8% lower than today...

Because of this... the futures trade lower than the spot, and therefore the options trade based on a lower intrinsic level than the current spot.

SPY is just an ETF based on S&P500... and they have more or less fixed ex-dates (quarterly) so it behaves different.

You have to realize that SPX/S&P500 is based on all underlying stocks... and when those stocks have their ex-dividend date, they trade lower by the amount of dividend.... 100 - 5 dividend, next day stock should open at 95.
So the same happens with SPX.... because it's the aggregate of all the stocks.

Some indices are different... DAX for instance, they use a dividend reinvest method for index calculations... so at ex-div days, the index level stays the same... but not for SPX
 
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Hi
You said,
Reversal = + call - put - underlying

If you do this with SPX itm calls you are going to loose for sure.
The underlying is moving direction the spot price, but your options no.

All that questions I am asking it is because I don't see the way to do what you propose in Spx options.

Please JackRab If you sell a itm call and buy the same strike put. How will you hedge?
Example: sell call strike 300 for 2108.3
buy put strike 300 for 0.05
please tell me how to hedge. Real example. I know how to do it with stoks and etf.

Tank you
 
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