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[dddooo]

Quote from sle:

We needed people that had some quantitatve skills, but nobody (with one notable exception) was even able to multiply two matrices.

So the people you interviewed did not suck in C++, they sucked in business skills (quantitative) which you required. If that's the case, that changes your story quite a bit.

It does not show that there are no good C++ developers out there. All it proves is that few developers had specific business experience matching your requirements.

 

[sle]

Quote from dddooo:
So the people you interviewed did not suck in C++, they sucked in business skills (quantitative) which you required.

I would certainly hope that you are kidding, matrix multiplication is as basic as it get. We were looking for solid c++ delveopers with quantitative skills, also known as math - the ones that we intrviewed were not able to pass a very simple math test.

 

[dddooo]

Quote from sle:

I would certainly hope that you are kidding, matrix multiplication is as basic as it get. We were looking for solid c++ delveopers with quantitative skills, also known as math - the ones that we intrviewed were not able to pass a very simple math test.

No I am not kidding. I am not a C++ developer though, so I might be wrong and matrix multiplication may indeed be part of a daily routine of C++ folks.

I started with C/dBase in 1988 and went all the way to Java, EJB, J2EE, Internet, Sybase, Oracle etc in 2002 working for best Wall street companies. I did primarily business development (internet, finance, trading, brokerage, databases etc), developed dozens of applicaitons but never in my career was I required to do matrix multiplication or anything like that.

I used to be good at math when I was in high school/college, I am pretty sure that it would take me a day or two with a math book to get up to speed with it. But if after 14 years of business development and 15 years out of colleage I walked into an interview and be charged with multiplying matrixes - I would undoubtedly fail despite all my experience. I'm quite sure lots of experienced developers would be in the same position.

 

[omcate]

Quote from dddooo:

I started with C/dBase in 1988 and went all the way to Java, EJB, J2EE, Internet, Sybase, Oracle etc in 2002 working for best Wall street companies. I did primarily business development (internet, finance, trading, brokerage, databases etc), developed dozens of applications but never in my career was I required to do matrix multiplication or anything like that.

It depends on the job requirements and the companies. If you applied for a C/C++ developer position at the FAST group of Bear Stearns few years ago, they usually asked you a lot of questions about matrices, for example, how to create a two-dimensional matrix on the heap(no STL please), how to print out a set of elements in a two-dimensional array(eg. first three rows, last three columns), etc. Similarly, if you applied for a quantitative programming position at Goldman Sachs or D.E. Shaw, they may ask you questions about Probability Theory, Black Scholes Model, PDE, Finite Difference Methods, Topoloy, etc.

 

[dddooo]

Quote from omcate:

...if you applied for a quantitative programming position at Goldman Sachs or D.E. Shaw, they may ask you questions about Probability Theory, Black Scholes Model, PDE, Finite Difference Methods, Topoloy, etc.

That's my point exactly. Certainly qualified person should be able to manipulate arrays and use heap. But the fact that some times it's hard to find a developer with a very specific set of business skills does not mean that there is a shortage of qualified developers in this country.

 

[CalTrader]

Quote from sle:

You know, our desk has been looking for programmers - he intreviewed a lot of people, but they all sucked. We found a few for salaries much bigger then 100k and hired them - and they all already had a job and switched. Anyone who actually is something already has a job and is being pestered by headhunters to switch to a new one, everyone else is crying foul and refuses to educate themselfs.

..

Well, your experience is completely opposite to ours. I am deluged with highly qualified applicants for our few openings: these are people with years of experience writing well known commercial software. The folks that are not getting hired have only had the misfortune to get layed off during a time when there are huge surpluses of qualifed people on the market and because of this salaries for top engineers have declined and job conditions at most companies - not ours however - are sweatshop-like and typically include poor treatment by managers who intimidate and threaten their people due to the current job market.

This is the current reality in the software business and in corporate IT positions and if you are smart you would be much better off steering away from this field: We are back to pre-1995 conditions and the software business was then, as it is now, not an ideal industry on which to base a career (unless you want to stay a programmer for the rest of your life).

 

[CalTrader]

Quote from sle:

I am talking about c++ positions. Some people had no C++ experience and they still put c++ on their resume, just to get an interview. We needed people that had some quantitatve skills, but nobody (with one notable exception) was even able to multiply two matrices.



No. But the ones that were any good already have a job. The ones that suck will stay home and eventually drop out of the IT jo market, just as the housewifes dropped out of it couple years ago. As I said, while there is no shortage of IT professionals, there is a clear shortage of good IT professionals.

Like I said, completely opposite to the reality on the west coast and nationwide. I regularly have lunch with some former colleagues that worked for me on past software projects. Many of them have been out of steady work for 1, and even 2 or more years. I hired those I could but I cant absorb all of them. All of these people would put your math abilities to shame both with respect to their theoretical and technical implementation knowledge: Most of them have PhD's and many years of experience.

 

[axeman]

Unfortunately, I agree with CalTrader.

I have ex-hot-shot consulting buddies, with the hottest
skills, experience, and range of skills in the market.

These guys are the creme of the crop and they are going
up to a year without being employed as well.

Some are moving into very small niche areas to dodge
the giant crashing wave of indian java programmers
that are available.

My company wont be hiring for another 2 years for IT
people it seems. They also have renegotiated all consultant
rates down at least 25% or more.

In this market, even if you are really good, you are still S.O.L.
With a large percentage of developers out of work,
every position has a looong line waiting for it. Until more
positions are created, all these guys will STAY out of work.

Time for them to migrate to another field. Not worth waiting.

peace

axeman

 

[sle]

Quote from CalTrader:

All of these people would put your math abilities to shame both with respect to their theoretical and technical implementation knowledge: Most of them have PhD's and many years of experience.

Forward me their resumes - we are still looking for another two programmers.

PS. I too do have a PhD and years of experience, in case you wounder. May be they should move to the east coast.

 

[CalTrader]

Quote from sle:

Forward me their resumes - we are still looking for another two programmers.

PS. I too do have a PhD and years of experience, in case you wounder. May be they should move to the east coast.

Thing is... I dont think they are willing to be "programmers" since they are management level. Of course, they wouldn't think of moving east - very few people from the west would agree to work in any eastern city since the quality of life is significantly degraded relative to the west coast.

Good luck with your search.