Exporting jobs

xbrxx · Dec 20, 2003

This is a ever changing world. 300 years ago... United states of Who? I've heard a bunch of estimates that in a couple of decades China's economy will be the largest in the world. Who really knows what will happen in the future. The thing is, at this point in time, Merck or Ibm, and etc, are not willing at this point to RISK their time, money, and business on unproven scientists in other countries.

Science(Research in Chemistry, Computers, Physics, Medicine, etc...) is not beta testing, basic programming, customer service, etc... like the jobs being exported to other countires. I don't know anything about the schooling in India(the schools cranking out these so called coders, not university education), but it cannot be any different than technical schools in America... Heald College, SVB, etc. Technical schools are designed to teach you to do the job. Research scientists who goto school at Harvard, UCB, Stanford, Columbia, Yale, etc... are not taught HOW to research. Creating new technology cannot be taught. Those schools provide the theory and technological foundation for further development in the future.

I mean, if I was in charge of hiring scientists at Merck, I don't think I would hire at Chem PHD from University of Moscow over one from Harvard... even if I was to save the company 150,000! That 150,000 is not that much when millions of R&D dollars are being invested in their unique thought process.

By no means am I trying to say Harvard, Ivy Leagues are the best! However, these schools research departments are clearly at the forefront of scientific research. The individuals that are lucky enough to study there have a clear advantage than those deprived from that knowledge.

The economy, job market, technology and the world is constantly evolving. Perhaps in 15 years, American scientists are unable to develop anything new and are overtaken by scientists in India and China. WHo really knows. I just see that the loss of computer science grunt jobs is just an evolution of the American job market.

Good nite,
xbrxx

dddooo · Dec 20, 2003

Quote from xbrxx:

I mean, if I was in charge of hiring scientists at Merck, I don't think I would hire at Chem PHD from University of Moscow over one from Harvard... even if I was to save the company 150,000! That 150,000 is not that much when millions of R&D dollars are being invested in their unique thought process.
xbrxx

That's why you are not in charge of hiring scientists at Merck.

I do not believe there are many CEO/CIOs nowdays who would not be willing to report short term savings of $100k Per Scientist (not to mention savings on supporting staff) even though it may devastate the company in the future. They've done worse things than that. Even with software outsourcing, the jury is still out whether it's worth it. We'll only know for sure when those projects start coming back and being deployed in production. Personally I would not be totally surprised if 90% of them turned out to be bug-ridden POS.

Do not get me wrong, I sincerely hope you guys are right and I am wrong and new better jobs are going to be created. I just do not see it hapenning. The layoff of 5000 high paid IBM jobs is a harsh reality while creation of new jobs is still a fiction. And I do not hear any CEOs having plans to create those jobs either. And once they start creating new jobs I do not see any reason for them to create them in this country as opposed to India.

I am also not sure that we can compare current situation with export of textile and manufacturing jobs. What's going on right now is quite unprecedented, cause this is the first time in history when white-collar jobs are exported. In addition current level of telecommunications, transportion and internet does allow ousoursing jobs which were unthinkable to outsource even 10 years ago. Oh well, we'll see how it all works out.

omcate · Dec 20, 2003

Quote from xbrxx:

Science(Research in Chemistry, Computers, Physics, Medicine, etc...) is not beta testing, basic programming, customer service, etc... like the jobs being exported to other countires. I don't know anything about the schooling in India(the schools cranking out these so called coders, not university education), but it cannot be any different than technical schools in America... Heald College, SVB, etc. Technical schools are designed to teach you to do the job. Research scientists who goto school at Harvard, UCB, Stanford, Columbia, Yale, etc... are not taught HOW to research. Creating new technology cannot be taught. Those schools provide the theory and technological foundation for further development in the future.

I mean, if I was in charge of hiring scientists at Merck, I don't think I would hire at Chem PHD from University of Moscow over one from Harvard... even if I was to save the company 150,000! That 150,000 is not that much when millions of R&D dollars are being invested in their unique thought process.

By no means am I trying to say Harvard, Ivy Leagues are the best! However, these schools research departments are clearly at the forefront of scientific research. The individuals that are lucky enough to study there have a clear advantage than those deprived from that knowledge.

That is the real problem in US now. Most Science Ph. D. have a very hard time in finding a job related to their study or research. A lot with strong Maths and/or computing background have gone to Wall Street. Science Magazine joked about the creation of a new academic status: "Postdoc Emeritus" over one year ago.

In the past 15 years, many Americans think that it is not worthy to go through all the hard work and sacrifice to get a Science Ph. D. degree. Hence, most Science graduate students in US are from China, India, Russia, Eastern Europe, etc. Now, the foreigners are doing most of the advanced research and development at the best American Universities/Labs. Tons of them have returned to their motherlands. Sooner or later, research departments of Merck or IBM, or NY University may be transferred to India, China, etc.

Just my two cents.

NasdaqTrader · Dec 20, 2003

I see the U.S. heading towards another great depression with an even bigger gap between the rich and the poor.

stelmerus · Dec 20, 2003

Right,

You would probably hire Harvard Chem PHD that graduated from University of Moscow before starting at Harvard.

Here is the guy. I'm afraid he does not even have Harvard PHD.
Don't think he would even want one...

http://www.stlport.org/resources/StepanovUSA.html

Quote from xbrxx:

This is a ever changing world. 300 years ago... United states of Who? I've heard a bunch of estimates that in a couple of decades China's economy will be the largest in the world. Who really knows what will happen in the future. The thing is, at this point in time, Merck or Ibm, and etc, are not willing at this point to RISK their time, money, and business on unproven scientists in other countries.

Science(Research in Chemistry, Computers, Physics, Medicine, etc...) is not beta testing, basic programming, customer service, etc... like the jobs being exported to other countires. I don't know anything about the schooling in India(the schools cranking out these so called coders, not university education), but it cannot be any different than technical schools in America... Heald College, SVB, etc. Technical schools are designed to teach you to do the job. Research scientists who goto school at Harvard, UCB, Stanford, Columbia, Yale, etc... are not taught HOW to research. Creating new technology cannot be taught. Those schools provide the theory and technological foundation for further development in the future.

I mean, if I was in charge of hiring scientists at Merck, I don't think I would hire at Chem PHD from University of Moscow over one from Harvard... even if I was to save the company 150,000! That 150,000 is not that much when millions of R&D dollars are being invested in their unique thought process.

By no means am I trying to say Harvard, Ivy Leagues are the best! However, these schools research departments are clearly at the forefront of scientific research. The individuals that are lucky enough to study there have a clear advantage than those deprived from that knowledge.

The economy, job market, technology and the world is constantly evolving. Perhaps in 15 years, American scientists are unable to develop anything new and are overtaken by scientists in India and China. WHo really knows. I just see that the loss of computer science grunt jobs is just an evolution of the American job market.

Good nite,
xbrxx

Mecro · Dec 20, 2003

Moscow University is one of the best universities in the world. Both my mother and father went there, so I know quite a bit about it.

I'm not sure how strict they are now, but before the fall of communism, they were very stringent. Communists did not mess around with education. The educational requirements were extremely high and they were enforced. If you were kicked out of school, you went directly to the army. There were few exceptions and strings pulled but nothing like what happens in the US.

I would pick any top student from Moscow University (before Communism fall) over any top student from Ivy League. There was and is no legacy, affirmative action, and other BS involved in the old Communist educational structure. It's very hardcore.

Covertibility · Dec 20, 2003

Amazing, notice how companies are exporting grunt jobs, not the high end R&D work. Last time I looked, US universities receieve a good size grants for research work, anyone care to show me how much the University of Moscow received? Or how about those presitigious schools in India? Don't bother, the best schools and R&D work is done in the US.

Turlo · Dec 20, 2003

Take a look at the people going to those schools, you will be surprised to see how many of them are from the countries like India.

The fact of the matter is our economy is global. In true capitalist fashion, it is survival of the fittest.

If your job function becomes obsolete choose a new career path that will pay the bills. When one door closes another opens. In my trading career I have had to change my trading business entirely to make a living about every 6 to 8 months. So don't wine to me..

Like they say in the US Marines, Adapt and overcome!

omcate · Dec 20, 2003

Quote from Turlo:

The fact of the matter is our economy is global. In true capitalist fashion, it is survival of the fittest.

Internet has expedited the globalization process. To certain extent, it has leveled the playing field. Just finish watching BBC news. A European country(Estonian) has passed a law:

All Kindergarten students MUST learn to surf the Internet.

The world is changing. We must adapt or perish.

misctrader · Dec 20, 2003

Quote from dddooo:

Oh yeah? What's going to stop them? Why do you think a research department of Merck or IBM, or NY University cannot be transferred to India? Why do you think they cannot hire qualified scientists in Russia or Vietnam and pay them $5 per hour as opposed to hiring scientists (often same people from Russia and India) in this country and paying them appropriate salaries and benefits.

What makes you believe that this country is going to be able to maintain its technical edge 15 years down the road if intelligent people are going to refuse to consider technical careers. Kids out of college are not going to be hired to do architecture. They obviously have to get experience in programming, coding, annalists etc first. Where are they going to get that experience if these jobs are overseas?

With the exception of lawyers, teachers and doctors pretty much any other white-collar profession can potentially be outsource, including managerial, financial, scientific and business jobs. It's just a matter of time...

As traders we do not really care, it's probably going to be good for the stock market, although even this is not assured. As a country it's going to make Bill Gates and Larry Ellison richer and wash out significant part of the middle class.

This is the core issues here. Of course, the US economy has always moved up the value chain. Textiles going overseas. Manufacturing going overseas. And now low level white collar jobs going overseas.

But I think we are at a critical juncture here in our economic history and evolution of globalization. Yes, a lot of the lower level white collar jobs are going overseas now like basic coding and programming. But it's NOT just programming. Even accountants should worry. E&Y has a new tax preparation center in India that has thousands of well trained CPAs.

So, the entry level blue collar jobs that college kids graduating in the year 2015 or whatever might disappear.

So, the arguments might go like this. Well, at least we still have the best research and innovation in the world. This is true. MIT and Harvard , Stanford, Berkeley etc are world class institutions that produced some of the best scientists, win the most Nobel prizes, created tons of Silicon Valley companies, etc. While this is true for now, but you gotta realize that vast majority of hard sciences phds are now awarded to foreigners. And a lot of do stay in the US and feed into our research labs.

But what happen if they decide to go back in the future and develop their own countries research centers?

Other countries like China, India, and Russia do have top rated schools that rival Harvard, MIT and Ivy Leagues of America. Though most of the innovations are still done in the US because we have CAPITAL and an environment to do quality research. But once these economies develop and matured and have capital to deploy and have US educated scientists coming back home. Not only that the living standards over there will start to rise.

I don't see what's stopping them from forming their own Bell Labs, Silicon Valley, and Biotech research centers in China , India,and Russia. And their government will have vast pool of capital thanks to years of TRADE SURPLUS with the US to fund top notch research centers.

Or living standards will not be the same. Unless we decide to work harder and focus on the next revolution of technologies and innovations. But most kids here want to be on American Idol or not as motivated. So, there will be extreme disparity in this country. The top 1% of people will have all the educational, economics, and social benefits and reap most of the rewards. The rest will be outcompeted in the global economy...