Exactly how stupid is Bush??

Quote from alfonso:

Brilliant. Simply brilliant. We bomb the living crap out of you, terrorize you, in fact -- "shock & awe is just a palatable euphamism for "intimidation by violence", the very definition of terrorism -- and then -- this is the good bit -- we ask you to pay for it!

Holy crap. Americans. Can't live with them, and they sure as hell don't let you live without 'em.
More...
Alfonso, Alfonso, I thought you had tired of making a fool of yourself on this forum.....Darn Argentinian lefties can't be trusted to keep their word either!

Oh, and FYI, we bombed the living crap out of and terrorized Saddam and his forces. We did our best to minimize civilian casualties and were very successful. The average Iraqi citizen has been "inconvenienced" in the following ways:

--No electricity for a while
--No running water for a while

Here are some other things we are depriving the Iraqi people of:

Torture
Rape
Murder
Knocks on the door by secret police
Being forced to serve in the armed forces under penalty of death, etc, etc...

By your logic, HOW DARE anyone do that? The Iraqis should be tortured, raped, murdered, etc. as long as they are willing to tolerate it, right?!? If a defenseless people controlled by a police state doesn't rise up and do the job themselves, f**k 'em, right?

Oh, and did I mention that now they will have a chance to vote for their leaders, partake in the vast oil wealth available to them that has been plundered for the past 30+ years, and have an honest to goodness opportunity to make a better life for themselves?

Damn right they owe us. Big time.

As far as your last two sentences, hey, we've left your pathetic country alone for the most part, except to throw aid money at it and watch your pathetic corrupt government squander it.

Just hilarious.
 
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:



Allowing this radical cleric to get on the radio was a big mistake and allowing this demonstration was another mistake. Baghdad is occupied territory under martial law, and these protestors should have been rounded up and jailed. If they objected, shoot them. We have enough problems ot deal with without mobs on the streets every week. The first order of business for Tommy Franks should now be to either arrest these radical clerics or call them in and give them some standing orders. It should be obvious that we cannot even contemplate letting a Islamic government be established, so why humor them?
More...

I think you're off base here, and I suspect that nothing would have pleased the the radical Islamists more than some attempt to suppress the rallies forcibly.

I don't think anyone really knows how likely it is that freeIraqis will vote for the establishment of an "Islamic government," but, if that means that a democratic but Islamic party, perhaps along the lines of the current ruling party in Turkey, eventually takes control of whatever national government, then I don't see why we should consider that a failure, at all.

We'll try to leave in place mechanisms and nascent institutions that encourage civil society, seek to ensure the protection of federal and individual rights, and seek to prevent state-supported terrorism, aggressive militarism, and systematic oppression of minorities. The longer-term view is to entice, push, or, where necessary, force the house of Islam into a peaceful, cooperative, and mutually beneficial relationship with the non-Islamic world. Along the way, even if things work out extremely well, there will be many, many Friday rallies featuring anti-Israel and anti-US slogans. Big deal. Anything short of Islamic fascism holding state power will be a distinct improvement for them and us.
 
Quote from KymarFye:



I think you're off base here, and I suspect that nothing would have pleased the the radical Islamists more than some attempt to suppress the rallies forcibly. ........................

............................. Anything short of Islamic fascism holding state power will be a distinct improvement for them and us.
More...

Great Post!!!!

RS8.5
 
Quote from hahaha:



rs7,

I entirely disagree. This war on Iraq has brought another enemy into the scene, the United States of America. Believe it or not, the U.S. is hated as much as Israel in this region of the world, maybe that's because they are now regarded as one. Now when it comes to Shiites and Sunnis, they have their differences, that's for sure, but when it comes to an outsider (The U.S.), they will do everything they can to defeat it. They will unite until they defeat their enemy, and then they will get back to their differences.
More...

Yup, no doubt that governments "hate" governments more than people "hate" people. My contention was merely that as people, the Shi'ite and Sunni sects have as much animosity for each other as they do for non muslims. Take the west out of the picture, and the schism in Islam will continue to cause death, war, hatred and unrest as it has since the 7th century.

You yourself say this in the last sentence above. Look what is happening in Pakistan, Kashmir, all over the world even now, even with a "common enemy".....(US/Israel). They are still killing each other on a daily basis.

The Poster Formerly Known as Rs7,
:)Rs8.5
 
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:

Symbolism is crucial in politics. The burning symbol from the Clinton years in foreign and defense affairs is undoubtedly the"Blackhawk Down" fiasco. It perfectly symbolized the inability of liberal democrats to walk and chew gum at the same time when it comes to protecting this country or the soldiers they are so quick to send on dangerous but trivial missions. The horror and shame of our troops being slaughtered and their bodies dragged through the streets emboldened dictators and terrorists worldwide. They took particular note that our response was to put our tail between our legs and slink out. In fairly quick order we had Khobar Towers bombing, the US Cole bombing, the African embassy attacks and , finally 9/11.
More...


Hmmm, it is my impression that the terrorists and dictators tend to specify the Vietnam "experience" as to how the US will react, which ended with a Republican administration (Nixon/Ford). It is also my impression that they point to how the US reacted to the Iranian hostage crises during a Democratic administration (Carter) as well as to how the US reacted to the Marines being blown up in Beirut by Hamas during a Republican administration (Reagan).

It seems that there is plenty of blame to go around if one wishes to embrace the logic of this argument.
 
KymarFye,

I agree that how to deal with these radical clerics and their followers is not an open and shut question. My point is that we cannot allow another Iran, or even a Pakistan where they wield enormous power and can basically defy the central government. Actually Turkey is close to what I would envision, but Turkey's constitution explicitly prohibits religious parties and mandates secular government. The military threw one guy out of office for violating that.

In view of this, I think the sooner we rein these guys in the better. Next week there could be 100,000 in the streets. It's highly likely the Iranians are meddling in this as well, and I'm sure our Saudi allies will want to get their radical clerics involved. We already have a model of how not to handle this. Jimmy Carter lacked the will to impose order in post-Shah Iran and sold out our allies there. Instead he gave the Islamists a foothold, with tragic results that plague us to this day.


I don't see this as a "hearts and minds" issue. They already hate us and would gladly kill all our troops if they could. We owe them nothing, and they are lucky we don't round them up and execute them, whcih is exactly what Khomeini did in Iran to those who opposed him. I also think we owe it to the Iraqi people to ensure a free, pluralistic society, adn not some sort of Taliban regime, whether they manage to win an election or not.

In view of the occupation, we clearly have the authority , indeed the duty, to ban demonstrations or exhortations to oppose our presence. Like it or not, we will have troops there for a long time and we don't need crazies running around causing problems.
 
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:

It's highly likely the Iranians are meddling in this as well,
More...

Iran is meddling. They have been funding a Shiite cleric (al-Hakim) in Iran for the past few years. And this is simply like their birthday, Christmas and a promotion falling on the same day. Think of it! In one fell swoop their worst enemy fell without them having to lift a finger and in the power vacuum they have a preened and prepped puppet to walk in.
 
AAA,

The US certainly can't allow things to spin out of control, and it certainly has to oppose meddling from Iran to whatever extent possible, but it also has to keep its eye on the longer term. A contingent inflammation of Islamofacist emotions was unavoidable: We are, after all, making war on them, and we just inflicted a major loss on them. We shouldn't be surprised - and I don't believe our policymakers are surprised - to see some of them raising their voices in response, and seeking by whatever means available to them to oppose and undermine us.

From the perspective of the Iranian mullah-ocracy, preventing Iraq from turning into a viable, West-friendly democratic "outpost" must appear to be a survival issue - and that's a good thing. The problem for them is that Islamic theocracy as a governing model is a miserable failure, has largely been recognized as such by those forced to live under it, and is very unlikely to be happily accepted by all Iraqis. In the meantime, subversion by proxy is a game that can be played both ways, and, even without much direct help from us to the internal Iranian opposition, the Iranians may very soon have too much to deal with within Iran to be able to promote foreign adventures very effectively.

It obviously gives great pleasure to opponents of US policy to see protests like last Friday's, and all the usual suspects in the West are already rising out of their post-Saddam depression, grasping at any evidence that at least some of their hysterical predictions might be coming true after all. We'll have a better idea in a few months, or years, whether the appeal of Islamofascist resentment and fantasy has greater power than that of economic and social development along more peaceful, Western lines. The historical track record for such confrontations is pretty good.
 
KymarFye,

I wish I shared your confidence that the Iraqi people will have the good judgment to reject the orders of their religious leaders. In any event, it puts us in a lose/lose situation. If we keep hands off, we will get increasingly violent opposition and incitements. If we suppress it, then we are attacking Islam and trying to impose our religion on hthem. That's why I was disappointed we ever let this genie out of the bottle.

As for Iran, I agree they are ripe for revolution, but history suggests they will not be able to throw off a police state without outside assistance. I have a lot of respect for the Iranian people but they are caught in a vise.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top