Evolution debunked in 1 paragraph.
- Thread starter peilthetraveler
- Start date
What a dope.you are emotional about losing you world view of randomness.
Now you are taking noble prizes winners out of context again... even though I have presented this info to you multiple times.
here is the full quote.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/p...ak-and-09-10-05
Szostak: Absolutely! I mean what we're interested in is figuring out plausible pathways for the origin of life. It would be great to have even one complete plausible pathway, but what we find often is when we figure out how one little step might have worked, it gives us ideas, and then we end up with ultimately two or three or more different ways in which a particular step could have happened. So that makes us think the overall process might be more robust. So, you know, ultimately it would be nice, I think, if it turned out that there were multiple plausible pathways; then, of course, we might never know what really happened on the early Earth.
My apologies.
Yes, philosophical. Everything you posted is nothing but philosophy. I posted experimental data. Not philosophy. Any rational person looking at this would agree that hard experimental data trumps philosophical quotations any day of the week.
Such a question is an insult to thousands of scientists all over the world who have been working over the last 150 years to unlock the secret of our ancestry. Shame.
What about all the expert quotes and experiments that I posted for you?
I have posted some of the steps that must have occurred for such a process to take place. But you still continue to arbitrarily dismiss such data in favor of philosophical quotations (because nothing in the quotation was experimentally validated) about the origin of life. Sorry, but a Nobel Prize behind the name means little compared to empirical data that no one can deny. That data was posted. If we're talking about "nothing short of really odd", I'd have to say rejecting experimental data for philosophy is just frankly...odd. Sorry if I get frustrated by that.
I scoff at the notion that science is atheist or theist.
You're quoting people who disprove your point.
Do you not understand that what you posted is philosophy, not experimentally acquired data? The Nobel Prize behind the name is one of the laziest proofs for an argument I have ever read. Obama got a Nobel Prize too. Who cares??? Do you have any experimental data to show us that the experiments I posted, which show random and spontaneous generation of amino acids, peptides, and other organic molecules from inorganic precursors, is wrong??? No more philosophy and ridiculously conjured up statistical arguments please...
wtf... he says in plain english says there is no complete plausible pathway of non life to life.
this is my point, because I believe that this noble prize winners understands the science.
Szostak: Absolutely! I mean what we're interested in is figuring out plausible pathways for the origin of life. It would be great to have even one complete plausible pathway, but what we find often is when we figure out how one little step might have worked, it gives us ideas, and then we end up with ultimately two or three or more different ways in which a particular step could have happened. So that makes us think the overall process might be more robust. So, you know, ultimately it would be nice, I think, if it turned out that there were multiple plausible pathways; then, of course, we might never know what really happened on the early Earth.
now he said that in 2009..
if he now says.. they have discovered proof of abiogenesis... I will accept that unless somewhat presents better science to the contrary.
For anyone interested in what I am referring to when I say there is a pathway for abiogenesis and some of the steps have already been recreated in a laboratory, here is some of the experimental data I posted earlier in responding to jem's assertion that there is no proof of abiogenesis. Here it is. Undeniable evidence that a pathway exists in regards to abiogenesis. Scientists are still working on completing our understanding of this process but what we have very much validates the fact of abiogenesis. Philosophical quotations and deceptive statistics are worthless against hard data such as this.
====================================
An article in Discover Magazine points to research by the Miller group indicating the formation of seven different amino acids and 11 types of nucleobases in ice when ammonia and cyanide were left in a freezer from 1972â1997. This article also describes research by Christof Biebricher showing the formation of RNA molecules 400 bases long under freezing conditions using an RNA template, a single-strand chain of RNA that guides the formation of a new strand of RNA. As that new RNA strand grows, it adheres to the template.
http://discovermagazine.com/2008/fe...start:int=0&-C=
Levy, M.; Miller, S. L.; Brinton, K.; Bada, J. L. (June 2000). "Prebiotic synthesis of adenine and amino acids under Europa-like conditions". Icarus 145 (2): 609â13.
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conte.../00005009#aff_1
========================
Evidence of the early appearance of life comes from the Isua supercrustal belt in Western Greenland and from similar formations in the nearby Akilia Islands. Carbon entering into rock formations has a ratio of Carbon-13 (13C) to Carbon-12 (12C) of about −5.5 (in units of δ13C), where because of a preferential biotic uptake of 12C, biomass has a δ13C of between −20 and −30. These isotopic fingerprints are preserved in the sediments, and Mojzis has used this technique to suggest that life existed on the planet already by 3.85 billion years ago.
Mojzis, S. J. et al. (1996). "Evidence for life on earth before 3,800 million years ago". Nature 384 (6604): 55â9.
=========================
A graduate student, Stanley Miller, and his professor, Harold Urey, performed an experiment that demonstrated how organic molecules could have spontaneously formed from inorganic precursors, under conditions like those posited by the Oparin-Haldane Hypothesis. The now-famous "MillerâUrey experiment" used a highly reduced mixture of gasesâmethane, ammonia and hydrogenâto form basic organic monomers, such as amino acids.
Miller, Stanley L. (1953). "A Production of Amino Acids Under Possible Primitive Earth Conditions". Science 117 (3046): 528â9.
===========================
Apart from the MillerâUrey experiment, the next most important step in research on prebiotic organic synthesis was the demonstration by Joan Oró that the nucleic acid purine base, adenine, was formed by heating aqueous ammonium cyanide solutions. In support of abiogenesis in eutectic ice, more recent work demonstrated the formation of s-triazines (alternative nucleobases), pyrimidines (including cytosine and uracil), and adenine from urea solutions subjected to freeze-thaw cycles under a reductive atmosphere (with spark discharges as an energy source).
Oró, J. (1961). "Mechanism of synthesis of adenine from hydrogen cyanide under possible primitive Earth conditions". Nature 191 (4794): 1193â4.
Menor-Salván C, Ruiz-Bermejo DM, Guzmán MI, Osuna-Esteban S, Veintemillas-Verdaguer S (2007). "Synthesis of pyrimidines and triazines in ice: implications for the prebiotic chemistry of nucleobases". Chemistry 15 (17): 4411â8.
========================
In the 1950s and 1960s, Sidney W. Fox studied the spontaneous formation of peptide structures under conditions that might plausibly have existed early in Earth's history. He demonstrated that amino acids could spontaneously form small peptides. These amino acids and small peptides could be encouraged to form closed spherical membranes, called proteinoid microspheres, which show many of the basic characteristics of 'life'.
http://nitro.biosci.arizona.edu/cou...fe/origins.html
=========================
Geoffrey W. Hoffmann, a student of Eigen, contributed to the concept of life involving both replication and metabolism emerging from catalytic noise. His contributions included showing that an early sloppy translation machinery can be stable against an error catastrophe of the type that had been envisaged as problematical by Leslie Orgel ("Orgel's paradox") and calculations regarding the occurrence of a set of required catalytic activities together with the exclusion of catalytic activities that would be disruptive. This is called the stochastic theory of the origin of life.
Hoffmann, G. W. (1974). "On the Origin of the Genetic Code and the Stability of the Translation Apparatus". J. Mol. Biol. 86: pp. 349â362.
Orgel, L. (1963). "The Maintenance of the Accuracy of Protein Synthesis and its Relevance to Ageing". Proc. Nat. Acad. Sci. USA 49: pp. 517â521.
Hoffmann, G. W. (1975). "The Stochastic Theory of the Origin of Life". Annual Review of Physical Chemistry 26: pp. 123â144.
===========================
While features of self-organization and self-replication are often considered the hallmark of living systems, there are many instances of abiotic molecules exhibiting such characteristics under proper conditions. For example Martin and Russel show that physical compartmentation by cell membranes from the environment and self-organization of self-contained redox reactions are the most conserved attributes of living things, and they argue therefore that inorganic matter with such attributes would be life's most likely last common ancestor.
Virus self-assembly within host cells has implications for the study of the origin of life, as it lends further credence to the hypothesis that life could have started as self-assembling organic molecules.
Martin, William; Russel, Michael J. (2003). "On the origins of cells: a hypothesis for the evolutionary transitions from abiotic geochemistry to chemoautotrophic prokaryotes, and from prokaryotes to nucleated cells". Phil. Trans. R. Soc. B 358 (1429): 59â83; discussion 83â5.
http://www.biology-direct.com/content/1//29
Vlassov AV, Kazakov SA, Johnston BH, Landweber LF (August 2005). "The RNA world on ice: a new scenario for the emergence of RNA information". J. Mol. Evol. 61 (2): 264â73.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...996e96f342023d3
====================================
An article in Discover Magazine points to research by the Miller group indicating the formation of seven different amino acids and 11 types of nucleobases in ice when ammonia and cyanide were left in a freezer from 1972â1997. This article also describes research by Christof Biebricher showing the formation of RNA molecules 400 bases long under freezing conditions using an RNA template, a single-strand chain of RNA that guides the formation of a new strand of RNA. As that new RNA strand grows, it adheres to the template.
http://discovermagazine.com/2008/fe...start:int=0&-C=
Levy, M.; Miller, S. L.; Brinton, K.; Bada, J. L. (June 2000). "Prebiotic synthesis of adenine and amino acids under Europa-like conditions". Icarus 145 (2): 609â13.
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conte.../00005009#aff_1
========================
Evidence of the early appearance of life comes from the Isua supercrustal belt in Western Greenland and from similar formations in the nearby Akilia Islands. Carbon entering into rock formations has a ratio of Carbon-13 (13C) to Carbon-12 (12C) of about −5.5 (in units of δ13C), where because of a preferential biotic uptake of 12C, biomass has a δ13C of between −20 and −30. These isotopic fingerprints are preserved in the sediments, and Mojzis has used this technique to suggest that life existed on the planet already by 3.85 billion years ago.
Mojzis, S. J. et al. (1996). "Evidence for life on earth before 3,800 million years ago". Nature 384 (6604): 55â9.
=========================
A graduate student, Stanley Miller, and his professor, Harold Urey, performed an experiment that demonstrated how organic molecules could have spontaneously formed from inorganic precursors, under conditions like those posited by the Oparin-Haldane Hypothesis. The now-famous "MillerâUrey experiment" used a highly reduced mixture of gasesâmethane, ammonia and hydrogenâto form basic organic monomers, such as amino acids.
Miller, Stanley L. (1953). "A Production of Amino Acids Under Possible Primitive Earth Conditions". Science 117 (3046): 528â9.
===========================
Apart from the MillerâUrey experiment, the next most important step in research on prebiotic organic synthesis was the demonstration by Joan Oró that the nucleic acid purine base, adenine, was formed by heating aqueous ammonium cyanide solutions. In support of abiogenesis in eutectic ice, more recent work demonstrated the formation of s-triazines (alternative nucleobases), pyrimidines (including cytosine and uracil), and adenine from urea solutions subjected to freeze-thaw cycles under a reductive atmosphere (with spark discharges as an energy source).
Oró, J. (1961). "Mechanism of synthesis of adenine from hydrogen cyanide under possible primitive Earth conditions". Nature 191 (4794): 1193â4.
Menor-Salván C, Ruiz-Bermejo DM, Guzmán MI, Osuna-Esteban S, Veintemillas-Verdaguer S (2007). "Synthesis of pyrimidines and triazines in ice: implications for the prebiotic chemistry of nucleobases". Chemistry 15 (17): 4411â8.
========================
In the 1950s and 1960s, Sidney W. Fox studied the spontaneous formation of peptide structures under conditions that might plausibly have existed early in Earth's history. He demonstrated that amino acids could spontaneously form small peptides. These amino acids and small peptides could be encouraged to form closed spherical membranes, called proteinoid microspheres, which show many of the basic characteristics of 'life'.
http://nitro.biosci.arizona.edu/cou...fe/origins.html
=========================
Geoffrey W. Hoffmann, a student of Eigen, contributed to the concept of life involving both replication and metabolism emerging from catalytic noise. His contributions included showing that an early sloppy translation machinery can be stable against an error catastrophe of the type that had been envisaged as problematical by Leslie Orgel ("Orgel's paradox") and calculations regarding the occurrence of a set of required catalytic activities together with the exclusion of catalytic activities that would be disruptive. This is called the stochastic theory of the origin of life.
Hoffmann, G. W. (1974). "On the Origin of the Genetic Code and the Stability of the Translation Apparatus". J. Mol. Biol. 86: pp. 349â362.
Orgel, L. (1963). "The Maintenance of the Accuracy of Protein Synthesis and its Relevance to Ageing". Proc. Nat. Acad. Sci. USA 49: pp. 517â521.
Hoffmann, G. W. (1975). "The Stochastic Theory of the Origin of Life". Annual Review of Physical Chemistry 26: pp. 123â144.
===========================
While features of self-organization and self-replication are often considered the hallmark of living systems, there are many instances of abiotic molecules exhibiting such characteristics under proper conditions. For example Martin and Russel show that physical compartmentation by cell membranes from the environment and self-organization of self-contained redox reactions are the most conserved attributes of living things, and they argue therefore that inorganic matter with such attributes would be life's most likely last common ancestor.
Virus self-assembly within host cells has implications for the study of the origin of life, as it lends further credence to the hypothesis that life could have started as self-assembling organic molecules.
Martin, William; Russel, Michael J. (2003). "On the origins of cells: a hypothesis for the evolutionary transitions from abiotic geochemistry to chemoautotrophic prokaryotes, and from prokaryotes to nucleated cells". Phil. Trans. R. Soc. B 358 (1429): 59â83; discussion 83â5.
http://www.biology-direct.com/content/1//29
Vlassov AV, Kazakov SA, Johnston BH, Landweber LF (August 2005). "The RNA world on ice: a new scenario for the emergence of RNA information". J. Mol. Evol. 61 (2): 264â73.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...996e96f342023d3