Evil Doers blow up university students

Originally posted by daniel_m

BTW, nice to see you completely ignored the other points I made in the other post.
More...

Sorry, I tried to address what you said here and accidentally lost it all.
I will try again after the market closes if you are interested.
Meanwhile, what points did I ignore? I will try and address them if I can.
Let me just quickly say that we are both entitled to our opinions, and they can be different. These are complex issues. I am sure we are both right and wrong not only subjectively, but probably factually as well. I am by no means a scholar of Middle East studies. I only know what I have read, and what seems to make sense to me. This does not make me right.

The only thing I vehemently disagreed with you about is that you said I was "delusional" for claiming that the arabs were not forced to leave Israel. So far, I have yet to be convinced otherwise.

As far as your assumptions about my beliefs, I think you would be quite surprised if you were to let me state them without personally attacking me. I never called YOU delusional, or even wrong. I only said that the "right of return" issue was a delusional one. You disagree with me. But this makes ME delusional?
 
I'm sure Candletrader is not one of those armchair quarterbacks who likes to play theoretical wargames that, when put into practice, end up costing the lives of many young men. As such he's probably volunteered his services to be on the front lines in the desert in the event of an Iraqi war. I admire that, and just as soon as I confirm that he has indeed signed up and committed years of his own life, and quite possibly his life itself for the noble cause, I'll be right behind him. Although I've already served 3 years in the Armed Forces, I feel Candle's pain, I feel Candle's outrage....
 
Originally posted by bungrider
I agree with both sides a bit, but the reality is that the problems of terrorism are caused by small groups of men who want to act like little children and build bombs, play with guns, camp out in caves, and crap like that. When I was 15, that stuff was cool to me, too, but unlike them, I grew out of it. This is why they don't let kids have guns. (I just wish the definition of "kids" could somehow be broadened to include any drunk redneck, or imbeciles claiming ideaology).
More...
bung, as always, you are on the money.
These "leaders" the Arafats and Khadafi's and Bin Ladens and Saddams and the rest are no more than rich gangsters. If they lived in East Los Angeles, they would be doing the same things they do now. Just without the political protection they enjoy. And less sophisticated weaponry. But they would still have risen to the top of their professions, which is to say they are just born gang leaders. Only their "colors" would be different. They would still be killers, dope dealers and bullies.

also, I agree with your "drunk redneck" ramark. amazing how the mentality can be so accurately stereotyped. get a pickup truck, a few guns, confederate flag bumper stickers, and you are all set. gotta love guns, and the death penalty, (but the "right to life" issue doesn't seem to be a conflict here...this has always stumped me), and get a tattoo so if you are shot down over new jersey they will know where to return the body.
 
Originally posted by daniel_m
I wasn't talking about Israel deliberately seeking to force a mass exodus of Arabs from Palestine.

Ok...guess I was wrong. I thought that was EXACTLY what you were saying. After all, you said I was delusional for saying that the arabs were NOT forced to leave Israel.


"..as they have been all along"? I'm not really sure what you're trying to say there, but if it means that the Arab Palestinians don't deserve or desire the right to self determination, well, that is just complete BS.

I NEVER said that. I do believe they have and deserve and desire the right to self rule. I just said that Arafat turned down the opportunity because it did not give him 100% of what he asked for (right of return). If you think the "right of return" is not unreasonalbe, then we can't go on with this discussion.

America screwed the "indians" (native north americans)...No doubt. But it is a little late for them to expect the return of Manhatten for instance. Is it a sad and embarassing chapter in our history? Absolutely. Worse, to me, than the treatment the arabs got in Israel. They (the arabs) were NOT forced to leave. They always had rights as citizens if they wanted. UNLIKE American Indians.

The reservations they were relocated to in Arizona, New Mexico, Utah and Nevada are the most inhospitable desolate and depressing parcels of land I have ever seen. The beautiful land they got in Colorado and Montana is just that. Beautiful, but not liveable. Oklahoma? Never been there, so I can't say. At least they got some oil there. But if the oil was known about then, you can bet they wouldn't have gotten it.

You also said I put forth that "jews are good and arabs bad". Where did I say that? I think the arab leaders are self serving and not good for their people. I think a lot of Israels leaders are guilty of terrorism and worse. I don't think that too many leaders (heads of state) anywhere really are representative of their populace. Including here.

My best friend in the world is Syrian. He now lives in Brooklyn. He has relatives in Israel as well as Syria. But he can not go to Israel to see them. If he does, he can never re-enter Syria. I could go on for quite a while about how he feels about al-Assad and the rest, but this is getting old.
All I ever meant to say was to resolve the crisis in the middle east would take money and education. If you don't agree, then there is nothing further to discuss. Keeping the "palestinians" and the Iraqis and Libyans in line requires them to be kept un-educated.

And yes, terrorism does pay. Not for the suicide bombers (maybe a little for their families), but they are just brainwashed pawns.
If you don't believe that there is a profit motive for Saddam and Arafat, then I suggest you give it a little more thought. You see them on the front lines? How many times has Arafat run away? Where was Saddam during the gulf war? Where was Bin Laden when the bombs fell? Sure as hell not leading the troops!
More...
 
The Arabs weren't forced to leave Israel, but they had no choice. Every persecuted European Jew during the 1930s and 40s made their way to Palestine and effectively displaced the Arab population. The Jews had better political organization and after the atrocities of the Holocaust, the United Nations was very sympathetic to their plight to establish a home in Palestine because of their "historical" ties to the land. The Brits relinquished control of Palestine in 1948 and the Jews defeated the Arabs and took over their country, and renamed it Israel. In essence, the Palestinians were forced out of their country. Anyone who thinks the Arabs just decided to voluntarily leave their homes and become refugees has been smoking too much crack.
 
Originally posted by goldenarm
The Brits relinquished control of Palestine in 1948 and the Jews defeated the Arabs and took over their country, and renamed it Israel. In essence, the Palestinians were forced out of their country. Anyone who thinks the Arabs just decided to voluntarily leave their homes and become refugees has been smoking too much crack.
More...
The context is important.
The jews defeated the arabs in 1948 only because it was their only alternative to their own defeat. They were attacked from all sides on the day the state of Israel was founded.
And the Arabs (there was no such thing as "Palestinians" yet) did indeed leave. If they were forced out, it was not by the Israelis.
The proof of this, if you want it, is that there are still Arabs in Israel. Those who stayed were granted citizenship, the right to vote, the right to serve in the government...essentially all the things they were denied by the arab countries that took in those who chose to be refugees. They could not be citizens or have any of the rights of citizens in Egypt, Syria, Lebenon, Iraq, or Saudi Arabia. They didn't even take what was offered in Jordan for the most part. If they had, then there would be no issue of displaced Palestinians now. Jordan WAS Palestine. It was created for that purpose. Of course, they would prefer to take Israel now...the work is done. What was once just a desert like Jordan has been transformed by 54 years of devoted hard work. Now they (Arafat) want to just take it back. Why didn't they make something of Jordan? Obviously is it easier to let others do the work, then murder them and take what they had away. Good plan!!

You are right about historical ties to the land! Good point. When was the first time that the term Palestinian was heard? 5,000 years ago? 4? 3? How about 35 years.....I think that is about right. Was there such a thing as a Palestinian before 1967? Nope!!!

I guess my crack pipe is working just fine. 'Cause obviously I am under the influence according to what you say.
 
bung rider was right. I have known a few rich arabs and they are mostly bored, love Vegas, not religious fanatics, and they don't drink alchohol but they smoke hash instead, they are not pious. It is the poor uneducated peasants that are religious fanatics and that can be talked into the suicide bombings. Also, usually the suicide bomber has a promise of money going to his family if he does the deed.

So , if you are suicidally depressed, desperately poor, illiterate, and a religious fanatic, being a suicide bomber is a viable career move. The general living conditions and political environment has to change in order to stop breeding the bombers.

Before the attack, I was content to live and let live, and don't do any premptive stuff. Now, it is our ass on the line and not just oil, and we don't have a choice. Eventually they will get a nuke or some nerve gas or something, and then it will be too late.
 
Originally posted by Madison
Not taking a position in this either way, but I came across an article in the Tech that hit on this exact subject - figured you might enjoy reading it:

[/B][/QUOTE] My point exactly. The Israelis started this mess, so they shall reap what they sow.
More...
 
Jews have better access to our politicians here. And they can buy..err.. influence our international policy to the extreme. We need an outpost in the middle east so we can control the oil fields. After all our present administration appears to be energy appointed and controlled.

Arabs, Palestinians and whoever else, doesn't have that much influence at least for now. I wonder if they would behave better, if they would get the same aid as Israel.

Here are our tax dollars at work:
Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

Just leave them all alone to duke it out. Keep our money home educate our children, our homeless, clean up the corporate mess, create jobs and take care of our problems here.

Josh
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top