Gotcha. That notwithstanding, I am curious how Axe would explain the other story I told, short of saying I lied.
Axe?
Ever had a supernatural experience?
- Thread starter hapaboy
- Start date
Gotcha. That notwithstanding, I am curious how Axe would explain the other story I told, short of saying I lied.
Axe?
Nice poisoning the well fallacy Shoe 
The fact is.... im a very easy person to convince.
You simply have to provide reputable evidence.
Sorry.... but unlike many people, I dont blindly accept
supernatural claims without sufficient evidence.
Obviously, this frustrates you, but its the rational thing to do.
Further... I am not absolutely convinced there is NO supernatural
phenomenon. I am only convinced that I have yet to
see ANY evidence for it. Big difference.
I also know that many supernatural claims directly go against
known knowledge of our universe.
I also know, many supernatural claims have been debunked
and that there is a track record of this.
I also know the amazing randi still has the 1 MILLION dollars
available to anyone who can prove anything supernatural exists.
I know that billions of people believing in something is not
what determines truth. Band wagon fallacy on your part.
There are numerous rational reasons why we should NOT believe
in the supernatural, but I have yet to see any really good
reasons why we should.
Given this scenario..... as a rational person, I must choose
a position of non-belief. Then there are people who choose
to believe FIRST, and then scramble trying to find supporting evidence.
This however, is the opposite of science.
peace
axeman
The fact is.... im a very easy person to convince.
You simply have to provide reputable evidence.
Sorry.... but unlike many people, I dont blindly accept
supernatural claims without sufficient evidence.
Obviously, this frustrates you, but its the rational thing to do.
Further... I am not absolutely convinced there is NO supernatural
phenomenon. I am only convinced that I have yet to
see ANY evidence for it. Big difference.
I also know that many supernatural claims directly go against
known knowledge of our universe.
I also know, many supernatural claims have been debunked
and that there is a track record of this.
I also know the amazing randi still has the 1 MILLION dollars
available to anyone who can prove anything supernatural exists.
I know that billions of people believing in something is not
what determines truth. Band wagon fallacy on your part.
There are numerous rational reasons why we should NOT believe
in the supernatural, but I have yet to see any really good
reasons why we should.
Given this scenario..... as a rational person, I must choose
a position of non-belief. Then there are people who choose
to believe FIRST, and then scramble trying to find supporting evidence.
This however, is the opposite of science.
peace
axeman
axe, everything you say would be true IF I didn't know that damned chandelier was going to fall, said out loud that it was going to fall, and then had it fall a split-second after I said it would. And what about the chain being cut smooth, like a knife through butter?Quote from axeman:
Sure you werent just worked up into an emotional state
by the book, had the chandelier crash down, and you brain
mixed up the timeline?
Hehehehe..... man... its all bullshit.
If any of this stuff was real, there would surely be some
hardcore evidence for it by none, yet there is none.
I dont think we have to look very far beyond the human
imagination for explanations. In your case, your heightened
state of emotion due to the scary book you were enthralled
with, is supporting evidence for a natural explanation.
Lets apply Occams razor:
1) Your creative human imagination got the best of you, and a
chandelier that coincidentally fell from the ceiling was weaved into
your memories in a such a way to "fit" your current
scared/spooky state of mind.
2) Ghosts/weird beings really do exist, which have never been
proven or detected by science, even though paranormal researchers
have been attempting this for decades.
Chances are.... nothing really spooky was going on outside
your head.
peace
axeman
IT DID HAPPEN.
It happened as surely as the sun rises, as surely as I pay taxes, etc., etc. I didn't revise those chain of events to fit my mindstate. Years later it's as clear as day.
FYI, about seven years after that incident, I was visiting my parents in Kuala Lumpur. They were upstairs sleeping and I was downstairs on the couch, alone, reading a novel. It wasn't a horror novel this time. In fact, I remember with extreme clarity that it was Wilbur Smith's "The Sunbird." Awesome book. But I digress...
Anyway, as I had seven years earlier, I felt a presence that made the hairs on the back of my neck go up. But this was different. The presence was not malevolent. There was no wind. I didn't get cold. I just felt a presence.
Then I heard a sound, like the sound you hear when you tap a spoon against a glass, once. Not scary at all, but distinct.
After several seconds this feeling of a presence dissipated. I stayed up for another hour or so and then went upstairs to bed.
The next morning I came downstairs and my mother asked if I had used their glass ashtray the night before, because something very odd had happened.
They had this beautiful glass ashtray, a thick one, about two inches from base to rim, that they had for several years. She was holding it in her hands. Well, she was holding the two pieces of it.
You see, sometime during the night, that ashtray had been sliced in two perfect halves. That cut, like that chandelier chain, was perfectly smooth.
Like a knife through butter.
It hadn't been dropped. My mother found it on the small end table in the living room where it always sat, split in two. There were no shards at all, just those two perfect halves.
I think that was the noise I heard the previous night when I felt that presence.
---------------------
Coincidence? Perhaps.
I'm not a glass expert. Maybe glass objects split in half all the time, without being dropped, with perfectly smooth edges.
But it happened the night I distinctly felt that presence, and I hadn't felt a presence as strongly since the chandelier incident seven years earlier.
Axe, I don't claim these occurrences to be works of the Devil, or God. They are simply occurrences that, to me, have no natural explanation. I don't expect everyone to believe them. As rowenwood said, I expected skepticism.
peace,
H
Quote from axeman:
Nice poisoning the well fallacy Shoe
The fact is.... im a very easy person to convince.
You simply have to provide reputable evidence.
Sorry.... but unlike many people, I dont blindly accept
supernatural claims without sufficient evidence.
Obviously, this frustrates you, but its the rational thing to do.
Further... I am not absolutely convinced there is NO supernatural
phenomenon. I am only convinced that I have yet to
see ANY evidence for it. Big difference.
......
This however, is the opposite of science.
peace
axeman
You know I respect your general reasoning and I can sympathize with the materialist position in many ways.
But listen to what MktRabbi is saying. You're essentially calling both of us liars or self-decieved. Now what is the point in that?
Look - let's take the case of my friend's wife whose tumor suddenly disappeared. Yes, maybe the doctor got the xrays mixed up and was looking at the wrong patient. But that's extremely unlikely.
What is your point in continually trying to come up with a materialist explanation for every supernatural even? I truly don't get it.
Why not just let the thread go on and see if maybe, just maybe, there is some evidence that is outside your paradigm?
If you're truly agnostic as you claim, why not just sit back and see if any decent evidence comes forward. If it doesn't, fine - none of us are any the worse for it...
Ya know... its a blatant LIE to say that all this stuff is
immediately "thrown out" by me as Shoe claims.
The truth is, its thrown out AFTER Shoe FAILS to provide
sufficient evidence for extraordinary claims. As it should be.
As for your other stories... nothing but hearsay.
They would not hold up in court, and do not hold up with me.
We cannot draw conclusions about our universe based on
mere stories told by people with no supporting evidence.
Otherwise we would all believe in big foot, unicorns and gremlins
If you claim there was supernatural stuff involved, then the
burden of proof is on you. I am not required to explain every
weird little story you can come up with.
Look at it this way.... In the dark ages there were frequent
reports of all kinds of supernatural things, including witch craft, etc...
I think we would all agree that the RATE of such incredible reports
has drastically diminished as society has become more and more
advanced over the years.
Now my question to you is.... do you actually think that the
RATE of supernatural occurrences has drastically dropped, or
that the change actually has more to do with SOCIETIES
perceptions and belief systems?
Since no supernatural phenomenon has ever been proven,
even with scientists all over the world searching for it,
I can only rationally conclude that there is a societal natural
explanation for this reduction of supernatural events.
In other words.... its probably all in peoples heads.
peace
axeman
immediately "thrown out" by me as Shoe claims.
The truth is, its thrown out AFTER Shoe FAILS to provide
sufficient evidence for extraordinary claims. As it should be.
As for your other stories... nothing but hearsay.
They would not hold up in court, and do not hold up with me.
We cannot draw conclusions about our universe based on
mere stories told by people with no supporting evidence.
Otherwise we would all believe in big foot, unicorns and gremlins
If you claim there was supernatural stuff involved, then the
burden of proof is on you. I am not required to explain every
weird little story you can come up with.
Look at it this way.... In the dark ages there were frequent
reports of all kinds of supernatural things, including witch craft, etc...
I think we would all agree that the RATE of such incredible reports
has drastically diminished as society has become more and more
advanced over the years.
Now my question to you is.... do you actually think that the
RATE of supernatural occurrences has drastically dropped, or
that the change actually has more to do with SOCIETIES
perceptions and belief systems?
Since no supernatural phenomenon has ever been proven,
even with scientists all over the world searching for it,
I can only rationally conclude that there is a societal natural
explanation for this reduction of supernatural events.
In other words.... its probably all in peoples heads.
peace
axeman
Er, Axe, it happened to ME. Where's the hearsay?
Here's another example: I have a female relative who was a jr. high teacher and chaparoned a group of jr. high girls to another city on an educational trip.
They had been talking too much and so she went into their hotel room to make sure they were actually not talking and trying to sleep.
One girl was asleep but one girl was awake with her eyes glazed open. The relative felt a "chill" and the girl growled at my wife, "I know who you are. You are the church lady."
Yes, it sounds like an old SNL skit. And, yes, it's possible the girl was dreaming. But this girl was heavily involved with the New Age and so the alternative is possible as well...
They had been talking too much and so she went into their hotel room to make sure they were actually not talking and trying to sleep.
One girl was asleep but one girl was awake with her eyes glazed open. The relative felt a "chill" and the girl growled at my wife, "I know who you are. You are the church lady."
Yes, it sounds like an old SNL skit. And, yes, it's possible the girl was dreaming. But this girl was heavily involved with the New Age and so the alternative is possible as well...
Im not calling anyone a liar or self deceived.
All im saying is that you cannot expect anyone to believe
such stories on their word alone.
This is not the proper way to accept new information into
your belief systems unless you are ok with a belief system
chock full of untruths.
The fact is.... people all over the world believe in all kinds of
crazy shit. It is not rational to accept such amazing stories
without some very solid evidence.
These experiences are very real to the people who experience
them but they still dont make them true.
Even happaboys story is not verifiable in any way.
Are we to believe that ghosts follow him around and cut
through things very cleanly just for the hell of it?
That some of them are nice and some not so nice and you
can tell the difference by wether or not you get cold?
(Sorry happa...just making a point).
We know how very flawed human memories can be, and
more importantly they can revise what they remember with
incredibly clarity without even knowing it.
People being interviewed by psychologists
report all kinds of histories with amazing detail, they swear by,
that they claim they can see as if it just happened yesterday.
Only problem is.... it can be proven that none of it ever happened.
There are all kinds of psychology case studies like these involving
false memories. So are these peoples liars? Nope.
But their memories are not true.
So given the choice between things we know happen, like false
memories, and incredible supernatural events with no
supporting evidence, what is the proper choice?
Isnt it funny that you immediately choose the supernatural
explanation of a tumor disappearing, instead of the natural
explanation of a doctor screwing up and misplacing or switching
X-rays when we KNOW this happens all the time???
People get the wrong legs amputated because of doctor fuckups.
50,000 people a year DIE because of BLATANT doctor errors
in hospitals every year.
BUT THIS ONE TIME WHEN SHOE IS INVOLVED, there wasnt
an X-ray error, that tumor supernaturally disappeared I tell ya!!
Dude.... doesnt even come close to being a believable explanation.
Apply occams razor and the majority of this stuff just goes
out the window.
peace
axeman
All im saying is that you cannot expect anyone to believe
such stories on their word alone.
This is not the proper way to accept new information into
your belief systems unless you are ok with a belief system
chock full of untruths.
The fact is.... people all over the world believe in all kinds of
crazy shit. It is not rational to accept such amazing stories
without some very solid evidence.
These experiences are very real to the people who experience
them but they still dont make them true.
Even happaboys story is not verifiable in any way.
Are we to believe that ghosts follow him around and cut
through things very cleanly just for the hell of it?
That some of them are nice and some not so nice and you
can tell the difference by wether or not you get cold?
(Sorry happa...just making a point).
We know how very flawed human memories can be, and
more importantly they can revise what they remember with
incredibly clarity without even knowing it.
People being interviewed by psychologists
report all kinds of histories with amazing detail, they swear by,
that they claim they can see as if it just happened yesterday.
Only problem is.... it can be proven that none of it ever happened.
There are all kinds of psychology case studies like these involving
false memories. So are these peoples liars? Nope.
But their memories are not true.
So given the choice between things we know happen, like false
memories, and incredible supernatural events with no
supporting evidence, what is the proper choice?
Isnt it funny that you immediately choose the supernatural
explanation of a tumor disappearing, instead of the natural
explanation of a doctor screwing up and misplacing or switching
X-rays when we KNOW this happens all the time???
People get the wrong legs amputated because of doctor fuckups.
50,000 people a year DIE because of BLATANT doctor errors
in hospitals every year.
BUT THIS ONE TIME WHEN SHOE IS INVOLVED, there wasnt
an X-ray error, that tumor supernaturally disappeared I tell ya!!
Dude.... doesnt even come close to being a believable explanation.
Apply occams razor and the majority of this stuff just goes
out the window.
peace
axeman
axeman and rowenwood: glad to see you in this thread! 
p. s. i had a grandmother that claimed to see ghosts. lol maybe i will, too, when i'm like 92.
p. s. i had a grandmother that claimed to see ghosts. lol maybe i will, too, when i'm like 92.
Actually... it happened to your great grand fathers sister
as you said earlier.
So that is hearsay.
As for the sick child.... you spoke to some other rabbi,
he asked for the mothers name...blah blah...
and the kid got better.
Your seriously gonna make that huge leap and credit him with that?
Are you fricken kidding me?
Non-sequitur.
But again.... this fits into my general scenario of confirmation bias.
Have you ever taken statistics on people that visited
that Rabbi for health reasons, and then calculated what percentage
of them got better and if that EXCEEDED the average rate which
people get better WITHOUT visiting that rabbi?
Didnt think so. So you have Absolutely ZERO EVIDENCE
that the rabbi is responsible for any of the effect.
peace
axeman
as you said earlier.
So that is hearsay.
As for the sick child.... you spoke to some other rabbi,
he asked for the mothers name...blah blah...
and the kid got better.
Your seriously gonna make that huge leap and credit him with that?
Are you fricken kidding me?
Non-sequitur.
But again.... this fits into my general scenario of confirmation bias.
Have you ever taken statistics on people that visited
that Rabbi for health reasons, and then calculated what percentage
of them got better and if that EXCEEDED the average rate which
people get better WITHOUT visiting that rabbi?
Didnt think so. So you have Absolutely ZERO EVIDENCE
that the rabbi is responsible for any of the effect.
peace
axeman