Eurex Volumes Collapse

jeb9999 · Feb 7, 2012

Quote from THE-BEAKER:

therein lies the debate - you mention ' market efficiency '.

i think the market is less efficient.

you try to buy and sell 10000 lots in bond futures and it takes 2 to 3 times more to fill the order.

how is that efficient.

its only efficient in hft reading the order and exploiting it.

that is not efficiency in my eyes thats cheating.

less retail comes back.

You are confusing market efficiency and liquidity.

The more efficient the market is the more difficult it is for a trader to make money.

If the market was 100% efficient no trader could make any money and liquidity would be near zero.

TsunTzu · Feb 8, 2012

Eurex dark pool? You for real?

Quote from jonp:

volume has not gone anywhere, most trading is happening in dark pools. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_liquidity the spread is still usually 1c on most stocks, there is still plenty of liquidity and big moves happening everyday in different stocks.

THE-BEAKER · Feb 9, 2012

Quote from TsunTzu:

Eurex dark pool? You for real?

yep for real.

citi match and citi cross are taking volume from eurex and out of fixed income in general.

they have been recently asking around for people to join them.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ecbfe5f6-a7e2-11e0-a312-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1lsa1CiJh

THE-BEAKER · Feb 9, 2012

Quote from jeb9999:

You are confusing market efficiency and liquidity.

The more efficient the market is the more difficult it is for a trader to make money.

If the market was 100% efficient no trader could make any money and liquidity would be near zero.

ok so if this in play and i believe it well and truly is.

what are the final endgame scenarios from this?

exchanges are effectively massively over valued.

TsunTzu · Feb 9, 2012

Hopefully the endgame will mean the end of your negative posts? Then what will you do with yourself?

newtricks · Feb 9, 2012

Basically you had no idea that there was a eurex dark pool,nor did I for that matter.

If the FT article link says there is one then we both learned something.

You've tried to be rude to the other guy (jonp) about the dark pool and mugged yourself off a bit.

Man up,accept you've made a cock up and get on with it instead of stroppy,bullshit,frankly ignorant posts.

You wouldn't behave that way in person, in the office,if you did you'd be told to fuck off ( and you would fuck off too) very quickly,so no need to do it here.

ElectricSavant · Feb 9, 2012

Could someone tell me what a dark pool really is?

Excuse my naivity.

ES

TsunTzu · Feb 9, 2012

Hilarious. So you read the article then did you? The only thing I learnt is that you are of the same ilk as the other guy.

I will await the usual profanity that falls out of the mouths of the ignorant

Quote from newtricks:

Basically you had no idea that there was a eurex dark pool,nor did I for that matter.

If the FT article link says there is one then we both learned something.

You've tried to be rude to the other guy (jonp) about the dark pool and mugged yourself off a bit.

Man up,accept you've made a cock up and get on with it instead of stroppy,bullshit,frankly ignorant posts.

You wouldn't behave that way in person, in the office,if you did you'd be told to fuck off ( and you would fuck off too) very quickly,so no need to do it here.

eusdaiki · Feb 9, 2012

Quote from ElectricSavant:

Could someone tell me what a dark pool really is?

Excuse my naivity.

ES

It is an execution venue that doesn't display any quotes. Just execution.

Eight · Feb 9, 2012

Quote from Dogfish:

The thread was referring to fixed income drops. But if you want evidence of stock vols dropping elsewhere see here

http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/19/markets/trading_volume/index.htm

or here
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...rterly-profit-slides-on-volume-plunge-1-.html

and most interestingly this set of charts showing how no one seems to be able to outperform the index these days, which ties in with the market being more efficient. Maybe hft is indeed killing the investment industry, you can't charge performance fees if you can't outperform. If no one can charge fees they close and the vols drop once more.

http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/11/21/correlation-chart-of-the-day-hedge-fund-edition/

The hft firms' costs just keep rising on this race to zero, what used to be profitable in microseconds now only works in nanoseconds and that costs a lot more money to stay first. The hft guys I know working at such firms say their costs keep doubling on their colocation kit and the returns dropping.

Interestingly the one type of fund that does still return is the macro fund which in some way is what point and click traders actually are. I mean we may complain but we're still knocking out some pretty impressive returns compared to the rest of the industry.

Think about the average prop local with a 6 figure account, add in all the bells and whistles software and you need to knock out 50% a yr to cover your fixed costs and break even. Then you have to cover all those commissions on top at tens of grand a month, then you need to make enough for a decent salary or what's the point being here. We're all still doing that to some extent or we'd be gone.

Before HFT funds didn't beat indexes... Individuals, trading their own money, have great potential to beat fund managers. The incentive is great to trade smart and a group is less intelligent overall than it's most intelligent individual. Think of this scenario: You work for a HFT outfit. You have a moment of inspiration and you have the HG.. do you go to the next meeting and tell everybody about it or do you implement it in your own account and tell nobody what it is?