Can it be done ? Perhaps, but the risk is not worth the reward.
es profit on 1/4 point can it be done?
- Thread starter saxon22
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Greetings,
While I think the 200 contract system is may be a bit extreme,trying to capture a portion of the daily range is a fairly safe play.
I don't think the "pros" know when anyone is in a trade,alot of them give away their customers money just like a "rube".Im not sure why daytrading has earned such a bad rap.The dirty secret is alot of traders made a fortune while the market crashed after 2000.Only 1 sided bulls got hammered,who was selling to them?JMHO.
cordially Tom
Methinks he doth protest too muchQuote from saxon22:
I am trying to learn it. I am not a gambler and yes as stated in many of my posts I have yet to put on a trade. However, I have never stated that I wanted to do 200 lot trades right from the bat. I provided this particular number since it is a well known fact that extreme scalping is done going in with large amount and keeping the money in the trade for a shortest period possible. I wanted to avoid people telling me that if I do it with 5 or 10 contract I would make less than minimum wage. I specifically asked if it can be done. Not necessarily by me, but whether IT CAN BE DONE? If you thought that I was going to trade with 200 contract right from the start then you have misjudged my intentions. Then again judging and misjudging people seem to be your forte.
You are right, I have responded to your answers to question that I did not ask of you, (please re-check the title of this thread, it is composed of simple language that I am sure most on this board had no difficulties following). In retrospect, it was a mistake, an error of judgement on my part. I do not know what got you so ticked off (care to collaborate?) and it seems that you got really upset.
As for "market bending me day after day", I think once again, you should reserve your judgment to yourself. This is a second time you have notified me of your opinion about my system, my ability to trade and my expected demise as a trader. Mind you, none of those opinions were in any way solicited by me, yet you felt it was necessary to state them. I would call that a childish behavior, but than again, from your posts I have deducted you are not that far away from your teenage years and consequently I should have expected a similar response.
I hope that you are proud from your actions of belittling a super newbie on this site. I am sure it takes guts and discipline to try to humiliate somebody who is new to this neighborhood of trading. I guess since you cannot pick on somebody "your own size", you decided to crucify me. Would sending you are video of me crying really make your day?(sorry pal you are not that lucky
).
As for looking in the mirror and asking myself if I could make it, I guess I should just wait for your barrage of views about my abilities, so far you have done a superb job.
On a lighter note in your post you mention that the market will bend me over day after day and that pro's will lick their lips when they see a rube like me coming. I do not know, but it looks like you are hanging out with a wrong crew. It could be hazardous to your health.
Happy trading, bending and licking or whatever you guys do down under to make the market tick.
Quote from trader28:
Methinks he doth protest too much
Methinks he's been sitting on his butt so long now that he's gonna have the world's worst case of "Outhouse Polio".
Saxon, just throw a couple grand in an account, get a platform that uses bracketing and put on a few trades. That will tell you all you need to know about your idea, good or bad.
Oh, and don't forget to ask yourself that question we discussed earlier.
Don-
illiquid
When I first read this, I thought you were doing a play by play of some of my old trades!!!!!!
saxon22
Yes money can be made scalping the ES for 1/4 point. But from my experience, not in the way it appears to me you are considering to attempt.
First let me give a little background.
I have been a full time trader for many years.
I started trading stocks in 1979.
By 1981 I was doing fairly well, by my standards at that time.
Best single day profit was a little over $16,000.00
In 1982 I became a series 7 stockbroker with Paine Webber.
By 1985 I had started an independent NASD broker dealer.
My firm traded managed accounts of which I was director of trading.
During this time I also owned controlling interest in a registered investment advisory firm.
I traded equities for clients and options and equities for myself and my family.
I now only trade for myself and my family. I trade equities, options, and ES futures.
My daughter is with Goldman in NY (age 30) and my son is a market maker at the CME (age 27). I have seen him do over 25,000 contracts on a single trade. Those guys have balls the size of coconuts.
I daytrade the ES whenever I am not traveling.
I mention all this as an indication of the battle scars and tuition I have paid. I just about went under in the crash of 87. At that time I thought I was a lot smarter than it turns out I am.
You have been given some very very good advise by John 47, illiquid, and Trader28.
From my experience, I will make some suggestions of things you might want to consider with your trading method. I have found that for most individuals successful trading is very individualized and not cookie cutter.
Many people will tell you you can not make money with a reward to risk ratio of less than 3 to 1 and definitely not less than 1 to 1.
When trading for larger moves, I tend to agree. But when scalping the ES I definitely disagree.
The only way I have been able to make it work is just the opposite, with a reward to risk ratio of 1 to 4.
That is with a 1/4 profit target with a 1 point stop.
I can nearly hear the laughter now, but I can tell you that is the only way I have been able to personally make it work.
With the 1/4 target and 1/4 to 1/2 stop the win rate is too close to 50/50 (just because of the normal shoving back and forth) and with the slippage and commissions I can't make it work. With the 1 point stop and very very selective entries I have been able to hit a win rate of over 85% for a 1/4 target. One really important thing is to use a trading platform that automatically enters you stop order when you enter your original order. Also I use a stop market order NOT a stop limit order. Yes this usually means a fill 1 1/4 below entry. But with this type of trading if it gets that close to your zone you had better be out and ask questions latter.
Also, I would suggest you not try to trade one contract lots except maybe to get used to entering and exiting orders the first few trades. What works for me is to trade in multiples of 3. I take off 1/3 at the first 1/4 profit target I take off another 1/3 at 1/2 profit target and then work the last 1/3 for a larger profit but move my stop to trigger market at breakeven.
I also think to be successful you must get use to joining the the q with your exit orders before you even get filled on your original position. If you do not do this you will not get picked of on your exits because of you position in the q.
Also, just as some of the others mentioned with all the scarecrows and positioning taking place in the book it is very difficult to trade this way while watching the professionals dance around in the book. I have found it much easier for me to just watch a filtered time and sales and the charts.
I have some more suggestions but just ran across this thread while I was waiting to go to a doctors appointment. I will try to post some more suggestions later.
saxon22
What are the trading books you have read and what are the ones you are planning to read?
Good Luck
Nutsneal
Quote from trader28:
Methinks he doth protest too much
As always your post is both eloquent and intelligent. You must be a charming chap, I have no doubt about that.
Btw, next time, could you use standard english? I am not privy to pseudo- english you seemed to picked up in the outback.
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