Also B or anyone else who wishes to comment, how do you get past not getting filled? Like with my 39 long call, I put the order at 39 after I verified that it did not blow through 38.75, and it only went back to 39.50 -- even though I was 90% sure that the direction would continue up, I found myself frozen, increasingly unwilling to pay higher at each stage up, even though it kept going up as I fully expected it to. Finally, once it gets to a point where a reversal is imminent, I then decide to buy! (like at 2:30 today). Not exactly sure why this is, but it's something I do consistently and MUST conquer!
ES Journal Archive (2011)
- Thread starter Buy1Sell2
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I tried to do 2-3 so that I could scale out, but I just couldn't handle it. I was risking 8 ticks to make 2, and after +2 I would take the trade off in fear. Now that's a terrible R:R! I had to go to 1. As I mentioned, I'm still there for the most part. With 1 contract I have very little stress about getting in, so that's the safest place for me to be. I'm probably 12 more months away from my target account size and then I'm going to try and up the standard size to 2-4 (double). I'm lucky in that I have other full time sources of income, so I'm not relying on trading for anything at this point. The meltdown was brutal, I won't lie. What I did notice that helped me was to actually say my feelings out loud. For instance "I am nervous about this trade and want to take it off early". In calling myself out, it actually helps to keep me sane.
I have noticed that you tend to call out a number of trades that are in the last leg of their move. Here's the thing, human emotions have patterns, and you are likely to "feel" the same way about the market at similar junctures, right? So I.D. that feeling and link it to the fact that more often than not you feel that way right at the end of the move. Now practice sitting back and staying out, and congratulate yourself for not chasing!
On the flip side, what is your typical emotional state when the BEST trade setups occur? Are you doubtful? Does the market look "bad" even though it ends up bouncing? Again if you can I.D. how you feel when good / bad trades are setting up, you can learn to accept those feelings and almost rely on them to tell you when the market is likely to do something. Learn to LOVE feeling like crap about a long trade, since that is usually a good sign that the market will bounce!
Thanks b -- actually I think the issue is that I often read the market quite well when I'm in a "normal" state of mental clarity. Like the 39 long that I didn't take. It felt right, and based on what I saw and felt, I was very sure it was a good long. Yet, those are the very trades I hesitate in taking. On the flip side, I did not feel nearly as good about the long near the top, yet I took it anyway. Go figure! I even said that out loud to myself today--"why do you pass on low risk high probability trades, yet you will so easily take a much less certain and impulsive trade?" I could not give myself a good answer
I think partially after missing so much earlier, I forced the last few trades late in the day. I actually had an order to sell 49.50 just before the nice selloff this morning, and pulled it. My read was short, and it was correct. Then, after missing the long and another easy 10 points (easy meaning no heat on the trade and no real retracements), it being Friday, and my wanting to make money, I force trades which is quite counterproductive.
I think partially after missing so much earlier, I forced the last few trades late in the day. I actually had an order to sell 49.50 just before the nice selloff this morning, and pulled it. My read was short, and it was correct. Then, after missing the long and another easy 10 points (easy meaning no heat on the trade and no real retracements), it being Friday, and my wanting to make money, I force trades which is quite counterproductive.
I've put a lot of thought into this behavior, as it has been one of the hardest mental hurdles for me to overcome since starting to trade. Here's how I process this:
If you take a low probability trade and lose, there is instant gratification. What I mean is, it is easy to quantify why the trade didn't work out, because you either "didn't follow your rules" or "took a low probability setup", etc. Either way, it gives your ego an easy out on where to pass the blame.
Now on the flip side, if you are seeing things clearly and you risk money and lose, that is a crushing blow to the ego! It threatens all the hard work and research that you have done, and your ego will protect itself as much as it possibly can. The thought of risking money based on your true beliefs is threatening, so your brain will literally try and trick you into avoiding those trades! It's marvelous and ridiculous at the same time.
By raising your limit and paying up.
Consider the fact that you did not get filled, may indicate that the market is even stronger than you think. Ever heard the saying, "Good fill, bad trade. Bad fill, good trade"? I think there is a lot of truth in that.
Further, it is a question of trading style, R/R and the setup. If you think the market is setting up for a 5 point move from your entry, what`s 2 ticks? The R/R is still good. Scalping for points though, 2 ticks is significant. I occasionally pick tops, but I`m only interested in doing that if I can get filled on a spike with a super low risk, so it depends on the setup. I would not chase in that situation. Different when a dynamic move is setting up.
Like I said earlier, planning in advance should solve it. "I`ll try to get filled at 39, if not, I`m willing to enter at a higher price."
Just trade it in simulator next time if you still find that you freeze.
Further, you should not be all fed up with this type of behavior, as I`m sure it have kept you out of trouble at times as well. While I usually do not have any problems paying up or lowering my offer, it has caused me some trouble as well since I can get too careless.
Bigsnack,
Thanks for sharing your story and wisdom.
It sounds similar to my own experience when starting out. What made it even worse for me was that I traded really well (better call it luck) during my first days thinking I was a real hot shot trader (easy money right) only to get caught in a news release with 5 lots and lost thousands before I even realized what happened.
I then turned off my screens and took my first cigarette in 10 years trying to calm down. I was still stupid enough to go back to my screens and I actually scalped back more than 50% of what I lost. I have no idea how I pulled that off, probably luck. I then lost money the next two days and finally had to be honest with myself and admit that I was clueless and had no idea what I was doing.
I guess that is what one may call a wake-up call or forced awareness of one`s own ignorance.
Thanks for sharing your story and wisdom.
It sounds similar to my own experience when starting out. What made it even worse for me was that I traded really well (better call it luck) during my first days thinking I was a real hot shot trader (easy money right) only to get caught in a news release with 5 lots and lost thousands before I even realized what happened.
I then turned off my screens and took my first cigarette in 10 years trying to calm down. I was still stupid enough to go back to my screens and I actually scalped back more than 50% of what I lost. I have no idea how I pulled that off, probably luck. I then lost money the next two days and finally had to be honest with myself and admit that I was clueless and had no idea what I was doing.
I guess that is what one may call a wake-up call or forced awareness of one`s own ignorance.
Quote from tomahawk:
Looks like some crazy bastards are going for it LF.
Personally I hate trading into the close on Friday.
(Edit: I didn't mean you Builder ... just saw your post. It takes a little "crazy" to make money in this business anyway.
no worries, didnt get what i wanted anyway. not the biggest fan of friday closes either. historically usually get chopped up in those final 15 minutes.
bigsnack and LF thanks for the stories and tips. always on the quest to conquer the ego and trade well.
josh dont worry about chasing if confident you know/feel where price is going. i went with gut today around 2ish or whenever and chased that 42 to 47 move. luckily worked out. have a good weekend.
Thanks guys for all the helpful comments -- LF, I often think about what you said there, "good fill, bad trade" .. in other words, if it comes back, then maybe it's not as strong as I would want it to be, and do I really want to be on board in that case? If I get that good price, then so does everyone else, and there's fewer people left to chase it up, which is what seemed happen in this very move. It makes sense that the stronger the trend, the fewer opportunities there will be to get on board at a pullback. Very good point and something I will have to find a balance with.
bigsnack, thanks buddy, I will nominate you my shrink, if you can handle that impossible job! :-D j/k
bigsnack, thanks buddy, I will nominate you my shrink, if you can handle that impossible job! :-D j/k
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