Enron Traders Schemed About California on Tapes

waggie may live in Calfornia now but he did not live in Calfornia through the corruption that was the democratic party of California at the time to the foundation of the energy crisis.

Yes Bush allowed ferc to allow California to be screwed when it should have stepped in.

But the democrats in the California legislature and in particular corrupt politicians in San Diego, allowed deregulation without proper safe guards to happen. I read real time in the San Diego paper how politicians leading the charge for deregulation had consulting businesses on the side that were reaping money from the companies pushing for the deregulation.

The corruption was rampant. It was part of the directionless backboneless no values whatever it takes to get a vote Bill Clinton Grey Davis screw you to help me style of government.

The democrats in Calfornia spend money they do not have to keep themselves in power. Grey Davis was the king of spending money for votes and so was that legislature.

They were also for sale to energy companies. It is the history of democrats in California.

To blame bush for what the democrats did to California is like blaming Bush for the recession we just exited. Notice that is not an issue anymore with the Democrats. I thought Bush's policys led to the recession.

By the way I think Bush is a poor leader, but I know who was for sale in California.
 
As I said before it was the liberal establishment who sh*tted away zillions and who so right royally fu*ked up the Californian economy with debt quite apart from the Mexican invasion from the South.

Nothing to do with Arnie.

But this is a cocktail to turn California into some sort of South American low life region. Its not what I want to see happen.
 
Quote from harrytrader:

Written in April 1998
[ Top Ten Myths About Electric Deregulation ]
by George C. Loehr
as appeared in the 15 April 98 issue of Public Utilities Fortnightly
http://www.elucem.com/electricity/column/topten.html

Myth
Reliability in the Restructured, Deregulated Industry Will be Just as High as in the Past

Reality
Don't bet on it! In fact, it's far more likely that deregulation and restructuring will lead to major degradation in bulk power system reliability. There are many reasons for this, some of which have already been touched on above. But here are a few of the most important:

Complication -- Assuring reliability used to be fairly straightforward--not easy, but straightforward. There were a limited number of players, a relatively simple infrastructure, and virtually universal commitment to the goals of reliability and conformance with criteria. Perhaps most important, there was a culture best characterized by cooperation and coordination. In the "new world order," we now have an almost limitless number of participants, a very complex (and becoming even more so) infrastructure, little commitment to the goals of reliability, a "how can we beat it" attitude toward criteria by many--and a culture characterized at best by competition and confidentiality, and at worst by distrust, litigation and authoritarianism.

Legalism -- Conformance with criteria is becoming an exercise in what we can get away with; how far can we go to just avoid violating the rules; and a search for loopholes. Conformance is "mandatory", and punishment assured. What a far cry from the days of so-called "voluntary" conformance, when players obeyed the rules because it was the right thing to do (how quaint!), and because they understood that reliability was in the best interest of all, and you couldn't expect others to respect the rules if you didn't follow them yourself. That's a way of functioning which the bureaucratic mind simply cannot conceive of, and yet it's the way most of North America functioned for more than a generation. And functioned very well, thank you, as the record clearly demonstrates.

Politicization -- Now that the reliability infrastructure has made conformance with reliability standards "mandatory," which apparently it cannot legally do without governmental authorization, reliability's Pandora's box has been opened to politicians and bureaucrats. But, of course, this is the inevitable outcome of the regulatory takeover of the industry's own organizations. A federal "backstop," we are told, must be provided, government must review and sanction all standards, and reliability is OK as long as it doesn't get in the way of the market. The judgment of professional experts will be replaced by political expediency.

Expediency -- Many of the industry's own organizations which were established for the purpose of promoting reliability have in essence sold their birthright. They have judged that the pragmatic course is to follow the politically correct approach, "if you can't beat Ôem, join Ôem." Some did this because they genuinely believed they had no alternative, and this was a less-than-perfect way to maintain at least some leverage vis-a-vis reliability. Some did it to survive. Some saw opportunities to build new empires. A few became "true believers." And some simply lacked the courage. All have been, in my view, misguided.

The bottom line is this: we will see more blackouts. It may take just a few months, or it may take years (we are dealing with the subtleties of probability), but it will happen, make no mistake about it. If this is so, one might ask, how come so few people have said it?! Ah, there's the rub! Well, for one thing, engineers love order--and most of the people who would agree with me are also engineers. We don't like to rock the boat. We'd rather work from within, and we have a devotion to authority which is sometimes far too strong. Many believe that, given the present situation, the only way to help reliability is to work from within and try to make the best of a bad situation. And, some of us would like to keep our jobs! There's been a kind of blanket of silence thrown over the whole industry. It's not written down anywhere, but everyone knows that speaking out, even in private meetings, may, to paraphrase the Surgeon General, be dangerous to your career. Everyone knows, too, that decisions will be made at the top, and contrary opinions are not welcome; one organization actually bragged about turning itself into a "top down" organization.

What happens next? Well, it's far too late to stop this train, no matter what happens in the near term. We'll all have to sit tight and hope for the best. And do what we each can--because, in the final analysis, that's all we can do
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First of all some regions are at more risk than others;
northeast went black out , south had power.

Its been 6[six] going on 7 years since that false doom & gloom ;
never had any infrequent power failure cost me anything.

Bottom line is we[& including south ] have NOT seen more blackouts;
my UPS[uninterrepted power supply] /power surge protector has NOT even got a good work out.

That article has underestimated the market place /free enterprize system superiority ;
they screamed the same doom /gloom way wrongly on airline deregulation.

:cool:
 
"Waggie, how is it that you continue to miss the point over and over again. I am NOT talking about the Forney's and the Beldens. I am talking about the general trading population at Enron at large. Are you intentionally trying to miss the point over and over again. I have said on ET many times, I feel no sympathy for the Enron officers and Executives. I am talking about the Enron Traders!!!!!"


Waggie, I hate to break this to you, I actually had friends that worked at Enron and traded there. So maybe I know more about this then you do. Most of these guys were really really smart kids out of college with quant backgrounds with 150 IQ's that worked on a trading desk. These kids designed very elaborate and complicated derivative models and their job, like at any other derivative desk, was to make money. They all got a nice salary, and a bonus that was tied to performance.

"These guys were smart, trust me. One of my friends that went to work there got offers from D.E shaw, Susquehanna, and SAC. He turned them all down to work with some of the brightest derivatives guys on the streets, the boys at Enron.

You need to get away from this fantasy world where the Evil Enron is like Dr. Evil from Austin Powers holding the world hostage unless he gets 100 gazzilion dollars. I'm afraid reality is not quite as sexy, or funny, as that.

Rather Waggie, Enron had thousands of traders, many of who never spoke to the other various departments and were all working on different projects. The fact of the matter is, Waggie they were good traders. They made a lot of money. And guess what, all those guys are now working for Goldman, Morgan Stanley, Susquehanna, and various hedge funds now."

Yeah Mav, these guys were really talented at trading power. They cheated, they stole, they manipulated the power grids to their advantage. They caused "artificial" congestion so that they could then relieve it with more "expensive" power and get paid for doing so. They concocted elaborate schemes to manipulate the California power market. Again, they stole, they cheated, they brokle the rules. Period. And you think they were good traders? All working for Goldman, Morgan Stanley and Susquehanna now? Yeah, right. You my friend live in a fantasy world.

I guess you think that Ben Johnson still owns the world record in the 100m dash, too.

:D
 
You seem to forget that ENRON was a highly capitalized hedge fund. A crooked one at that . . . that fostered a culture where the rules of the marketplace did not apply to them. And yet you cast the traders at ENRON as wonder kids developing sophisticated derivative models. Even one of the head power traders who later went to work for UBS is no longer there. He didn't even last a year.

Cheaters are cheaters.
Period.
 
Quote from waggie945:

You seem to forget that ENRON was a highly capitalized hedge fund. A crooked one at that . . . that fostered a culture where the rules of the marketplace did not apply to them. And yet you cast the traders at ENRON as wonder kids developing sophisticated derivative models. Even one of the head power traders who later went to work for UBS is no longer there. He didn't even last a year.

Cheaters are cheaters.
Period.
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Waggie, your animosity is quite unreal. It seems that whenever you hate something or someone, you lose all perspective and become this hate mongering machine.

I want you to think about this for a second OK. Enron was a massive company OK? Not just two massive high rises in downtown Houston, but they had offices all over the world. I have been to their office in Houston, it's like another world. You can't believe how many people that worked there. I have met many of the traders at Enron both in Houston and in NY and went out with drinks with them.

They are normal people just like you and me. Mostly young, very educated, strong backgrounds in math, science and computers. Very high IQ's, very good work ethics. Where there bad traders at Enron? Sure. Just like there are at Goldman, SAC, LTCM, D.E Shaw, you name it. But a majority of these guys Waggie, whether you want to believe it or not, were just really bright kids that wanted to trade.

If they had grown up in Chicago, they probably would have been on the floor of the CBOE or the Merc. But these kids came from all over. Like I said, I had friends there and many friends who tried to get jobs there. They told me about the interview process as even I was interested at one time to get an interview.

From what they told me, it was brutal. It was like a 6 part process. They had to take numerous math and statistics tests. They had to be able to perform hours upon hours of intense mathematical calculations in their head. I had to do this when I interviewed at the CBOE, but not like this. This was almost like boot camp. They wanted to see if they could wear these guys down.

Many of my friends were pissed that they didn't make it past even the first part of the interview. Believe it or not, it actually got harder. They had no interest in guys with Finance degrees. At least not for trading. For trading, it was math and stats only.

Bottom line Waggie, these kids were smart and very bright. If I had the resume to work there, I would have, but no way, I could even get in the front door there. If you would have graduated around the late 90's, you probably would have sent them your resume too.

So if you want to pretend that these young kids woke up one day at college graduation and decided they were going to steal from the world and commit illegal activities, fine, you believe that. I can't change your mind. But I know a lot of these people. Some of them were my friends, and others I met in NY on business trips. They were the nicest bunch of guys I ever met. Hardworking, bright kids, that just wanted to trade and make a living.

I really wish you would get off your high horse and stop pretending that just because you read the San Francisco Chronicle that you know everything there is to know about something. Just because you read a newspaper article you presume to know everything there is to know about a situation.

Let me ask you something Waggie? Have you ever been to one of their offices? Did you know anyone that worked there? Surely you can't be basing all of this hate on what you read in a newspaper can you? Or can you? I hope not. Waggie, let go of the hate man, it will consume you. Look at the positives in life and don't dwell on the negatives so much. You'll be a much happier guy and a better trader.
 
The fact of the matter is that there are a lot of people on this particular thread that believe that the State of California did this to themselves . . .

You yourself have stated that Enron did not cause the energy shortage in California. You stated this on Page 8 of this thread. This by the way is totally false. You also go on and on to talk about how smart the traders are at Enron and how big the company is and how it is a "global" energy concern. Big deal. This has nothing to do with anything. It is a TOTAL WASTE OF TIME for you to bring this up as some sort of an issue. Is it so impossible for you to stay on topic, Mav?

You also go on to say that you can't blame the "evil traders of Enron" for profiting from these higher prices. Yet, as I so accurately pointed out, only morons would try and compare an Enron to the floor traders of the NYMEX or MERC or CBOT. 99% of the locals and specs in futures markets do not have the financial creditworthyness to even get involved in commercial acceptance/delivery and or transmission of a commodity. Yet, you totally ignore this fact and go on and on and on about how smart the Enron traders are. Duh. Can you ever stay on topic?

In any event, my postings on this board speak to the cause and effect relationship of Enron manipulating power prices in California and black-outs occuring along with dramatically higher prices. You and many of the people on this thread don't blame ENRON for anything. People like maxpi, chasinfla, cutten, arnie, as well as yourself, just to name a few

It's really funny how most of these guys (including yourself) don't even live in California and think they have it all figured-out, as usual. In fact, they go out of their way to blame Gov. Davis, the liberals, the legislature, blah, blah, blah. Guess you have never heard of Grid #15.

I have been in the state long enough to observe that there were no significant problems regarding electricity rates and the supply of power until the likes of Enron and Dynegy and the others started "manipulating" the power grid with artificial congestion.

If you don't think that Enron drove power prices higher thru illegal "gaming and manipulation" of the California energy grid, then you are the stupidest SOB on this board, and I don't have to tell you that there are a lot of stupid SOB 's here!

Again, this has nothing to do with how smart the traders were at Enron, your friends there, their IQ's, who later hired them, blah, blah, blah.

:D
 
As for my happiness as a person, a trader, and a member of my community . . . I'm fairly secure with myself that I don't have to feel a need to be judged by egotistical and highly insecure individuals such as yourself that are incapable of putting together "unbiased" arguments because their brain is unable to function at any other level than the typical "conservatives vs liberals" philosophical argument.

Mav, have you ever noticed that you have a helluva lot to say about the State of California and its affairs . . . yet you don't even live here??? Ever notice that?

But then again, that seems to be your "mo" now isn't it? Comment on anything and everything in the Big Chatroom in the Sky and yet have no real relevant knowledge about what you are talking about, especially when the State of California is concerned.

You don't hear me commenting on issues regarding Florida or Illinois now do you? Of course not. I don't live there and am not qualified to offer a knowledgeable or reasonable opinion. That's the difference between you and me. Your EGO gets the best of you, time and time again.
 
Waggie, I never said I didn't blame Enron. In fact, I said they were both to blame. CA put themselves in a situation where they could be exploited and they were. I just don't like how you use the word Enron as this evil empire. Yes, there were many bad people there. I have told you this many times. But I would go on record saying that a majority of the people there, say 80%, had nothing to do with this.

In fact, the collapse of Enron ruined a lot of these people. They lost their job, their investment in ENE stock and many could not find work afterwards because of the economy. Waggie, there are bad people in every company. The reason I talked about the traders is because you specifically went after them and portrayed them to be these heartless evil people that should be shot on sight. You like to clump groups of people together and charge them with guilt by association. That is why I went out of my way to give you a little background as to who these young kids were and how hard it was to get into Enron.

You seemed to have a vendetta against these young kids. I don't know why, maybe for personal reasons, who knows. But again, like you typically do, you put words in my mouth. I never said there was no blame to be had by Enron and I never said it was only the fault of CA. You put those words in my mouth. But you don't like to assign blame evenly across the board, you like to throw it all against one person or one entity or one company. I'm afraid Waggie, in the real world, it doesn't work like that.

And for the last time, the reference I made to floor traders was only in reference to how traders exploit opportunities. Waggie, I knew guys at the CBOT that did things that would make your heart stop. These guys were crooks, most of them. How they treated customer orders, how they concealed losses. How they gave bad quotes to brokers. The bottom line is, they were there to make a dime and many times did so at the expense of others, even illegally. This is what they had in common with Enron traders, not their freaking ability to take delivery of a product. LOL. Sometimes I wonder where you get this shit from.

But go ahead, blame Enron, and while your at it, could you please link Enron to Dick Cheney again and Bush. Go ahead, one more time for old time's sake. Everything is a conspiracy to you. Waggie there are many more Enron's out there, they just haven't slipped up yet. That's the unfortunate thing about this business. Where there is a lot of money, you will attract unscrupulous people. This hasn't changed since the beginning of time. And you know what Waggie, it never will. Live and learn.
 
Quote from waggie945:

As for my happiness as a person, a trader, and a member of my community . . . I'm fairly secure with myself that I don't have to feel a need to be judged by egotistical and highly insecure individuals such as yourself that are incapable of putting together "unbiased" arguments because their brain is unable to function at any other level than the typical "conservatives vs liberals" philosophical argument.

Mav, have you ever noticed that you have a helluva lot to say about the State of California and its affairs . . . yet you don't even live here??? Ever notice that?

But then again, that seems to be your "mo" now isn't it? Comment on anything and everything in the Big Chatroom in the Sky and yet have no real relevant knowledge about what you are talking about, especially when the State of California is concerned.

You don't hear me commenting on issues regarding Florida or Illinois now do you? Of course not. I don't live there and am not qualified to offer a knowledgeable or reasonable opinion. That's the difference between you and me. Your EGO gets the best of you, time and time again.
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Waggie, I think out of my 3,000 plus posts, less then 1% deal with CA. I would hardly call that a helluva lot to say about CA. You obviously didn't major in statistics in college did you? LOL.

And Waggie, don't call me unbiased, I already exposed you for being the most biased person on ET. I actually talk about both sides of an issue or person. You admitted to me here on ET that you are incapable of doing that if you hate somebody. Great logic there.
 
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