Endicott's genuine advice to young people who want to make it as pro traders

One of the problems with the retail crowd is trying to find just the right tone to communicate with them. Let me try this again. First of all, no, you don't need math or use math to make money. You need math to optimize what you are doing and to analyze the results. Edges can come from lots of places. You don't need math to find edges, you need data analysis skills to go through data and find the signal from the noise. That's pretty straightforward. Where the math comes in is taking something you think will work and optimizing the parameters. In micro-economics it's analogous to a production function where we want to maximize revenues subject to a given constraint, usually a total cost function. With a little bit of calculus or using the solver function on excel you can find your optimal values. Anyway, I don't want to go deeper into this part for now.

The other part about liquidity, again, going back to simple economics, competitive markets usually don't have excess margin. In fact, the definition of a competitive market as some of you know is marginal revenue = marginal cost. If this condition does not hold, new players enter the market to capture that excess margin until marginal costs go up and equal marginal revenues. In a competitive marketplace, you often hear the term, firms compete on cost. Because when you are in a competitive market, the firm can't set the market price. All they can do is compete on cost and optimize their business such that their marginal costs is lower then their competitors. We see this play out precisely in trading where firms who are able to lower their marginal costs usually capture the market. It's very very difficult to compete in a competitive liquid market if you are the marginal player. And the marginal player is the one with the highest costs.

Less liquid markets have less competition and the signal to noise ratio is better. This means it's easier to extract valuable information. Now, we go back to the production function from earlier. Once we have identified a real edge in this less liquid market, we have to find our optimal condition. This means in plain english, given our liquidity constraints, our risk capital, and edge, what is the optimal strategy to maximize our profits. THIS is the "math" part. It's actually very important. If we can all agree at least on this one part. That in a market as competitive as trading, edges are hard to come by and they are probably relatively very very small and infrequent. This means that over time, to fully capture these excess revenues hidden in the infinite time and space of the markets, the profitable players need to be operating at the most efficient level possible to extract these revenues. That is only possible through a lot of analysis and a lot of math.

No, I don't think a newbie should should start out trading markets that have no liquidity. When I first got in this game many years ago, I worked for the notorious Wall Street firm Worldco. This was at the "height" of the nasdaq bubble in 2000 where all the rage was trading the high flyers on the nasdaq. Our firm did NOT trade nasdaq stocks. We did not even trade large caps. Our niche among the 1000 or so traders we had, was the mid cap space. Not completely illiquid by any means, but on the surface very dull and boring stocks. Avg daily volume 250k to 500k shares a day. While everyone else was trading CMGI and Inktomi and Network Solutions, we were trading names like Williams Sonoma, St. Joes, Brown Shoe, IGT, and PVC. How did that work out for us? We produced more mulit-millionaires then any firm on the street that was not an investment bank. I sat next to guys that pulled down 100k to 500k a day. It took me a while to "buy in" to the concept but when I did my life was changed forever. Now don't get me wrong, this was not even remotely easy. I busted my ass. I got into the office at 6:30 am every day and was the last guy to turn off the lights at night. I spent thousands of hours pouring through time and sales data. But the edges where there.

Good luck.

mav; on friday u wrote "So out of the 40 something traders I over saw how many of them made money? None. How many of them blew out their accounts? Almost all"

then your last post you mentioned at worldco..you sat next to more big traders than anywhere not an investment bank"

can you clarify a bit better what you are trying to convey? possibly things are random..or the one set did not study enough vs the other set..or even possibly the trading environment was more conducive to day traders? or something entirely different...

i take it u were mostly a risk manager as opposed to trader in these jobs?

you write entensively so i apologize for maybe skimming your points.
 
I sat next to guys that pulled down 100k to 500k a day. It took me a while to "buy in" to the concept but when I did my life was changed forever.

So what specific methods were these guys using that you "bought into" and is that something that could be replicated easily buy a retail trader? You mention time and sales. Is it just identifying direction of large order flow and riding coat tails, or is it turning the market during slow periods and trying to get momentum traders on board?
 
mav; on friday u wrote "So out of the 40 something traders I over saw how many of them made money? None. How many of them blew out their accounts? Almost all"

then your last post you mentioned at worldco..you sat next to more big traders than anywhere not an investment bank"

can you clarify a bit better what you are trying to convey? possibly things are random..or the one set did not study enough vs the other set..or even possibly the trading environment was more conducive to day traders? or something entirely different...

i take it u were mostly a risk manager as opposed to trader in these jobs?

you write entensively so i apologize for maybe skimming your points.

SIV,

Two completely different environments. At Worldco we ironically had a very high percentage of Ivy League Grads (here comes the haters). However we also had a ton of asians and Russians right off the boat so speak. Hell, we had a few guys right out of high school. However the intellect there was amazing, even for that time period before the quants took over. Also the guys there busted their ass. People make fun of Worldco a lot but these guys brought game. The intensity there was amazing.

At VTrader it was basically Elite Trader. No I have never been a risk manager but I was responsible for watching the guys who I brought in there. It was just easier for me to talk to them when there was a problem then having some guy in SF screaming at them to get out of a position. Honestly SIV it was night and day. One group was a bunch of hobbysist traders who wanted to give the old trading game a college try. Show up at the office at the open bell, leave two hours before market closes. Sell some premium, go to lunch, run some errands. The other group showed up 3 to 4 hours before market open. Left 3 hours after market closed. Ate lunch at their desk. Built huge proprietary edges. Guarded them with their life. Hell the Russians had their own floor and locked all their doors to keep guys out. Groups were very secretive. It was really an eye opening experience. SIV it's just a function of worth ethic, to some degree intellect, and focusing on areas of the market that were quiet and and not crowded. We only traded listed names and mostly midcaps. But we dominated that space. We probably represented half of all the trading on the NYSE on on those names ironically enough.

Guys on this board just don't understand the kind of work that goes into this business. And by work I mean both in trading and education. If guys want to believe you can use a straight ruler and a movinvg avg crossover on ES futures and claim some kind of edge, well this is America and they have that right. I'm just offering advice. Not charging anything for it.
 
Also to be fair, we as a firm did have an edge that went away in 2003 and that was bullets. Bullets were a huge edge. I don't know what % of our p&l was attributed to bullets, it wasn't all but it was a lot.
 
"effing deadbeat" I am starting to see what it looks like...I bet there is one around right now


I love how when you say on this board you need to understand math, the avg ETer assumes only Phd's know math. Hahaha. Come on guys, math, not string theory. I never said you needed a Phd or even a Masters. You need to know MATH! For god's sake has our public school system failed us so bad that rudimentary skills in math are not being taught anymore? LOL. And please, lighten up on the LTCM bs, Every effing deadbeat on this board goes to them as their throwback as to why counting past the number of fingers on your hand is not necessary as LTCM surely proves. I love ET!
 
So what specific methods were these guys using that you "bought into" and is that something that could be replicated easily buy a retail trader? You mention time and sales. Is it just identifying direction of large order flow and riding coat tails, or is it turning the market during slow periods and trying to get momentum traders on board?

One, not trading the nasdaq names at the time. EVERYONE and their mother was trading internet and tech names. We were trading hardware stores and chemical stocks that did 300k shares a day. That was very tough for me to buy into at the beginning. Looking for the stuff that didn't move a lot but had news catalysts in a similar name.

The second thing was ditching charts. All we looked at was the NYSE tape. Since these stocks traded so little shares it was very easy to track the tape. I watched every print in every stock I traded. Never looked at a chart. THAT was hard to buy into as well.

Not fading stuff. Being willing to buy a stock up 8% on the day that normally moves 1% a day. These are all very psychologically difficult things for guys to do. But you look around you and you see guys making 100k , 300k , 500k a day and you do what you have to drink the medicine and get on board.
 
SIV,

Two completely different environments. At Worldco we ironically had a very high percentage of Ivy League Grads (here comes the haters). However we also had a ton of asians and Russians right off the boat so speak. Hell, we had a few guys right out of high school. However the intellect there was amazing, even for that time period before the quants took over. Also the guys there busted their ass. People make fun of Worldco a lot but these guys brought game. The intensity there was amazing.

At VTrader it was basically Elite Trader. No I have never been a risk manager but I was responsible for watching the guys who I brought in there. It was just easier for me to talk to them when there was a problem then having some guy in SF screaming at them to get out of a position. Honestly SIV it was night and day. One group was a bunch of hobbysist traders who wanted to give the old trading game a college try. Show up at the office at the open bell, leave two hours before market closes. Sell some premium, go to lunch, run some errands. The other group showed up 3 to 4 hours before market open. Left 3 hours after market closed. Ate lunch at their desk. Built huge proprietary edges. Guarded them with their life. Hell the Russians had their own floor and locked all their doors to keep guys out. Groups were very secretive. It was really an eye opening experience. SIV it's just a function of worth ethic, to some degree intellect, and focusing on areas of the market that were quiet and and not crowded. We only traded listed names and mostly midcaps. But we dominated that space. We probably represented half of all the trading on the NYSE on on those names ironically enough.

Guys on this board just don't understand the kind of work that goes into this business. And by work I mean both in trading and education. If guys want to believe you can use a straight ruler and a movinvg avg crossover on ES futures and claim some kind of edge, well this is America and they have that right. I'm just offering advice. Not charging anything for it.


gotcha;

i concur with the time, modeling etc needed. i will diverge with you that there are no guys who have done the steps necessary to make it. that time/modeling, maths needed precludes me from posting a lot!
 
gotcha;

i concur with the time, modeling etc needed. i will diverge with you that there are no guys who have done the steps necessary to make it. that time/modeling, maths needed precludes me from posting a lot!

SIV, there are 40k aliases on this site. Obviously I'm speaking about the general population. I am actually working with some pretty bright people on this site on some modelling projects. But they are few and hard to come by on here.
 
SIV,

Two completely different environments. At Worldco we ironically had a very high percentage of Ivy League Grads (here comes the haters). However we also had a ton of asians and Russians right off the boat so speak. Hell, we had a few guys right out of high school. However the intellect there was amazing, even for that time period before the quants took over. Also the guys there busted their ass. People make fun of Worldco a lot but these guys brought game. The intensity there was amazing.

At VTrader it was basically Elite Trader. No I have never been a risk manager but I was responsible for watching the guys who I brought in there. It was just easier for me to talk to them when there was a problem then having some guy in SF screaming at them to get out of a position. Honestly SIV it was night and day. One group was a bunch of hobbysist traders who wanted to give the old trading game a college try. Show up at the office at the open bell, leave two hours before market closes. Sell some premium, go to lunch, run some errands. The other group showed up 3 to 4 hours before market open. Left 3 hours after market closed. Ate lunch at their desk. Built huge proprietary edges. Guarded them with their life. Hell the Russians had their own floor and locked all their doors to keep guys out. Groups were very secretive. It was really an eye opening experience. SIV it's just a function of worth ethic, to some degree intellect, and focusing on areas of the market that were quiet and and not crowded. We only traded listed names and mostly midcaps. But we dominated that space. We probably represented half of all the trading on the NYSE on on those names ironically enough.

Guys on this board just don't understand the kind of work that goes into this business. And by work I mean both in trading and education. If guys want to believe you can use a straight ruler and a movinvg avg crossover on ES futures and claim some kind of edge, well this is America and they have that right. I'm just offering advice. Not charging anything for it.

hmm yes the best I have seen are secretive, immensely committed and focussed. An intense concentration on money management also. They don't try to cut losers or trades they no longer want they just do it instantly without thinking/hesitating and walk away.

If I was going to trade stocks with DOM & TOS and no charts I would probably choose 6 to 8 names and watch the sector/commodity etf/spy. Clear through a broker with tiny round trip costs and pay away a small split aiming to take out 20-30 price ticks a day.
 
If I was going to trade stocks with DOM & TOS and no charts I would probably choose 6 to 8 names and watch the sector/commodity etf/spy. Clear through a broker with tiny round trip costs and pay away a small split aiming to take out 20-30 price ticks a day.

Since I didn't come from a true Prop background and still struggle with the DOM, I am at a disadvantage in some respects.

However, I do know my fractal wave patterns on the CL and NQ. And with those I know how to extract some $$.

I think most retail traders concentrate on the wrong instruments, the ES comes to mind, and get worked over by enlightened traders before they ever get the chance to really learn the game.

Working on adding reading the order flow to help confirm and refine my entries.

Same lessons that applied to my IT career applies to trading. If you're not learning something new , you're falling behind.
 
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