Emotional traits of the best traders

Quote from monty21:

I think this emotion argument is blown out of proportion...

I've worked alongside some very profitable traders with huge accounts and they get mad, they yell, they curse, they punch their keyboards. I've also heard the same thing in equity prop divisions at IBs. The bond traders are quiet and calm but the equity guys go nuts though.

I think emotions are bad when you feel fear or greed. When you have a big position and your body becomes numb, then that is dangerous. But what is really happening, in my case, is that I'm usually in a way bigger position than I am supposed to be in. Maybe its a good thing my body is making me feel uncomfortable. This could cloud your judgment. But there are plenty of expressively "emotional" guys that don't allow it to cloud their judgments.

One important distinction is this this. You don't have to be in optimal mental state 100% of the time during the trading day, but only when you have to make trading decision. Therefore in my opinion it is okay to vent off your emotions instead of stuffing them up.
:)
 
Quote from TSGannGalt:

Very interesting how you never use the word "MARKET". For you everything is "all part of your psychology" even though your definition of "psychology" is very trivial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology

:eek: :eek: :eek:
That's because I have learned that I CANNOT control the "MARKET", it is totally out of my control. However I can control "MYSELF", so my focus is on "INTERNAL CONTROL". :D :D :D
 
Quote from TSGannGalt:

Knowledge / skills come first.

Before you focus, you need to know what you are focusing on.

Psychology (Greek: Ψυχολογία, lit. "study of the mind", from ψυχή psykhē "breath, spirit, soul"; and -λογία, -logia "study of"[1]) is an academic and applied discipline involving the systematic, and often scientific, study of human mental functions and behavior.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology

To have knowledge isn't enough, one must know what to do with that knowledge.

I know guys on both ends of the spectrum, emotional and unemotional. So I know success can be had either way. At the end of the day (life), I would prefer a proper balance which ultimately leads to a healthier lifestyle.

You can't cheat the God(s):D
 
Quote from TSGannGalt:

Good.

So you know all about:

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/hep-th/pdf/9709/9709015v3.pdf

... just by looking into yourself. Help society solve the Grand Unification Theory now.

Of course....... but without first solving the absolute differences of each dimensional (theory), the particle reference of any constant will not contain enough mass to conclusively identify any holistic (holographic) singular, dualistic, quantum, etc string without first identifying the radius of oneself.

All theory, dear friend, is grey, but the golden tree of life springs ever green
~Goethe
 
Quote from Mr.Consistent:

That's because I have learned that I CANNOT control the "MARKET", it is totally out of my control. However I can control "MYSELF", so my focus is on "INTERNAL CONTROL". :D :D :D

I bet you are a big fan of Mark Douglas' Trading in the Zone
 
Quote from TSGannGalt:

1. Are you suggesting that, "If you think like one, you act like one"? If so, think like Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan, I'll play like them?

2. I don't get your Turtle example...

You have 10 traders trading a Trend-following system. >>> The performance varied. >>> ??? >>> Factor = psychological.

The "???" is what I'm talking about. You automatically concluded that the difference is psychological without giving it more thought. I tend to see with a lot of retail traders, once they reach a point where they can't come up with a conclusion within their experience and knowledge, they automatically conclude it on some psychological issue.

In another words, the person stopped pursuing for knowledge and skills. In terms of the Turtles (the source of information is from Curtis or Stig), Curtis Faith was one of Richard's favorite so he kept on getting more buying power / leverage. Also, there was a lot of discretion given to the traders regarding which markets to trade (it's trend following... so it's obvious) and how they pyramid the position. That has nothing to do with discipline about following Turtle rules.

Anyways, you didn't have the knowledge behind some of the reasons why the Turtles performed differently. So you concluded it to be psychological. Once you gain the knowledge, it wasn't quite so.

3. I don't deny psychology as a whole. Just like sports, where they tune/optimize their focus towards performing. All that comes after the fact that you have an edge. (or in sports... after gaining the skills after a lot... alot of practice)

I didn't mean for this to get into a large drawn out debate becasue both sides will stick with their views either way. With that said, you post some interesting points and seem well thought out. Especially with your turtle "rebuttle", you very well may know more then I do on that experiment as I have just learned little tid bits here and there.

However, I still respectfully disagree. I think the inner psychological aspect is extremely important. I will agree that a sound strategy (or edge) and risk management parameters are essential, but I do not believe that those two things are what is holding most traders back. Maybe the turtles wasn't a perfect example, but the point was that you can give a profitable system to a random unsuccessful trader and because of their lack of discipline and psychological make up, which stems from how they handle their inevitable emotions of fear and greed, will leave them still unsuccessful long term, unless they eventually address their inner problems. Your example of Tiger Woods is more of an example to prove my point, that the inner person or psychology of a person is very important at higher levels of mastery and success. In all of the Woods biography material that I have read and seen, he was shown to make considerable effort with honing his inner emotional and mental or psychological strengths. He was known to often and extensively use affirmations, visualizations, probably meditation, etc. to hone these areas. It is my belief that aside from constant and relentless physical practice, it is his complete focus, emotional awareness, and mental stamina which allows him to keep his, almost surreal, focus to perform EXTREMELY well under the intense pressures of competing against the best golfers in the world on international television, month after month.

So my final opinion is that yes, sound strategy and money management are surly vital to success and need to be practiced, but I believe that many aspects of a persons psychological make-up, both emotional and mental, are also extremely important, if not more important, to success. Especially when it comes to outlier type success, like mastery for example. Another words, I believe what separates the good from the truly great is mostly psychological in nature.

Let me also be clear that I am not referring to how a person acts after, or in response to, a gain or loss in the chosen field. A person can be emotionally and overall psychologically balanced during the performing of the task but then be an emotional wreck afterwords. These psychological and emotional strengths can, and often times are, compartmentalized in the extremely successful person or master in their field. Another words, an extremely successful person can perform flawlessly while performing and then later on show great emotion in response to the result of their performance (The earlier statement of seeing a successful person crying, for example).

Just my opinion of course as there is really no way to prove this with facts either way.
 
Quote from Eric215:

I didn't mean for this to get into a large drawn out debate becasue both sides will stick with their views either way. With that said, you post some interesting points and seem well thought out. Especially with your turtle "rebuttle", you very well may know more then I do on that experiment as I have just learned little tid bits here and there.

However, I still respectfully disagree. I think the inner psychological aspect is extremely important. I will agree that a sound strategy (or edge) and risk management parameters are essential, but I do not believe that those two things are what is holding most traders back. Maybe the turtles wasn't a perfect example, but the point was that you can give a profitable system to a random unsuccessful trader and because of their lack of discipline and psychological make up, which stems from how they handle their inevitable emotions of fear and greed, will leave them still unsuccessful long term, unless they eventually address their inner problems. Your example of Tiger Woods is more of an example to prove my point, that the inner person or psychology of a person is very important at higher levels of mastery and success. In all of the Woods biography material that I have read and seen, he was shown to make considerable effort with honing his inner emotional and mental or psychological strengths. He was known to often and extensively use affirmations, visualizations, probably meditation, etc. to hone these areas. It is my belief that aside from constant and relentless physical practice, it is his complete focus, emotional awareness, and mental stamina which allows him to keep his, almost surreal, focus to perform EXTREMELY well under the intense pressures of competing against the best golfers in the world on international television, month after month.

So my final opinion is that yes, sound strategy and money management are surly vital to success and need to be practiced, but I believe that many aspects of a persons psychological make-up, both emotional and mental, are also extremely important, if not more important, to success. Especially when it comes to outlier type success, like mastery for example. Another words, I believe what separates the good from the truly great is mostly psychological in nature.

Let me also be clear that I am not referring to how a person acts after, or in response to, a gain or loss in the chosen field. A person can be emotionally and overall psychologically balanced during the performing of the task but then be an emotional wreck afterwords. These psychological and emotional strengths can, and often times are, compartmentalized in the extremely successful person or master in their field. Another words, an extremely successful person can perform flawlessly while performing and then later on show great emotion in response to the result of their performance.

Just my opinion of course as there is really no way to prove this with facts either way.
I think it's time, I stop playing and we get this cleared out.

1. I've never been against psychology. Re-read my rebuttal #3.

2. Everyone agrees that you need an edge. Most people debating agrees that you need the psychological setup to utilize the edge "wisely". I can't throw a ball without a ball in my hands. I can't focus on something without knowing what to focus on. I wrote specifically, that "NEWBIES" need to focus on studying to markets... Re-read my first post where I wrote that character and emotional traits have nothing to do with trading.

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It's interesting how people who talk about psychology and perceptions, are the ones who need help on those the most. Please... re-read my posts in this thread... digest it... and think again... What and where are you disagree with me about? You guys merely take a snippets of what I wrote and obsess over it. You take one quote... forget the prior... take another quote... and forget the prior... Actually, I can see why you guys are so protective over "psychology".

Do people emphasize on psychology because they consciously or un-consciously understand their handicap?

or...

Does the emphasis over psychology make them blindsighted by it, leading their perception narrow?

Anyways, it's very ironic... (as usual)
 
Quote from TSGannGalt:

???

Specifically, what are you disagreeing about?

I was under the impression from your post that you were disagreeing with me in that a person's psychological make-up or strength, for lack of a better word, plays a vital role in a trader's consistent success. My post was made to address a few of your points and then to further, and more thoroughly, state my reasoning for my conclusions.

If you find my previous post to mostly ring true to you then I guess we just had a lack of communication and I do not disagree with you.
 
Quote from TSGannGalt:

Do people emphasize on psychology because they consciously or un-consciously understand their handicap?

or...

Does the emphasis over psychology make them blindsighted by it, leading their perception narrow?

Anyways, it's very ironic... (as usual)

Relax, if I misunderstood you or offended you then I apologize, but there is no reason to get judgmental.

I state that I think psychological aspects are an important, and often overlooked, element to a trader's success because this is what I have experienced during my journey to my personal success and it is what I have noticed when working with and talking to unprofitable traders. That's it. You quoted my post so I was under the impression that you disagreed.
 
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