Eliminating Spoofing = making bluffing illegal

sprstpd said:
And here is another problem. There is no clear cut definition of spoofing. You are saying it means trading without intent. Someone else says a high cancel rate, someone else says a lot of orders not near the best bid or ask. When it is this wishy-washy, people can bend it the way that fits their needs. I think we just need to get off this whole spoofing business. And just go after people HFTing. Spoofing or not.

See what I did there? My paragraph is just as valid as yours.
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I think the CME is pretty clear in their definition of what constitutes a "Disruptive Practice", rule 575.
 
Guile said:
But the consequences of breaking this "rule" are not the same for all market participants. Trader beware.
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Agreed, but that's not what this discussion is about really. It doesn't help that several of said small traders asked TT how to program their malevolent ideas either. I agree that the punishment doesn't fit the crime here.
 
cjbuckley4 said:
Agreed, but that's not what this discussion is about really. It doesn't help that several of said small traders ask TT how to program their malevolent ideas either. I agree that the punishment doesn't fit the crime here.
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"malevolent"? Are you fucking serious? HFTs painting the tape and "shaping the book" isn't malevolent? Have you followed what has happened in equities?
 
Guile said:
"malevolent"? Are you fucking serious? HFTs painting the tape and "shaping the book" isn't malevolent? Have you followed what has happened in equities?
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I am indeed fucking serious. I also don't recall advocating for either of those practices. I don't really do equities, but I'm still aware of some of these practices, yes.
 
cjbuckley4 said:
I am indeed fucking serious. I also don't recall advocating for either of those practices. I don't really do equities, but I'm still aware of some of these practices, yes.
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That's fucking hilarious!
HFT supporter takes moral high ground. HFT supporter warns other HFT traders of TT users deploying "malevolent" strategies on E mini futures market. News at 11:00...
 
Guile said:
That's fucking hilarious!
HFT supporter takes moral high ground. HFT supporter warns other HFT traders of TT users deploying "malevolent" strategies on E mini futures market. News at 11:00...
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Maybe this is naive as I only know them from a few interviews and nights out, but the entity I'm working with this summer hasn't detailed their secret manipulative strategies to me yet. They seemed much more interested in my capacity to write code and brainteasers than making sure I'm willing to engage in malevolent strategies. They seem like good folks, I'm pretty confident at this juncture that I'm morally okay with what we're doing.
 
cjbuckley4 said:
Maybe this is naive as I only know them from a few interviews and nights out, but the entity I'm working with this summer hasn't detailed their secret manipulative strategies to me yet. They seemed much more interested in my capacity to write code and brainteasers than making sure I'm willing to engage in malevolent strategies. They seem like good folks, I'm pretty confident at this juncture that I'm morally okay with what we're doing.
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That's fine, but don't make it seem like HFTs are morally better than spoofing. Spoofing is just an alternate trading strategy (in fact a good one for tricking stupid bots). Both submit and cancel orders.
 
sprstpd said:
That's fine, but don't make it seem like HFTs are morally better than spoofing. Spoofing is just an alternate trading strategy (in fact a good one for tricking stupid bots). Both submit and cancel orders.
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I appreciate your civility...that's actually exceedingly rare on this site. I agree that some HFTs have and probably still do engage in manipulative activities, but I'm adamant that cancelling orders isn't morally wrong. Placing orders you intend to cancel is wrong, but placing orders with the intent to trade and later cancelling them because you no longer intend to trade at a given price is just something totally different. If cancelling orders was wrong on its own, why would regulators even let you do it?
 
cjbuckley4 said:
I appreciate your civility...that's actually exceedingly rare on this site. I agree that some HFTs have and probably still do engage in manipulative activities, but I'm adamant that cancelling orders isn't morally wrong. Placing orders you intend to cancel is wrong, but placing orders with the intent to trade and later cancelling them because you no longer intend to trade at a given price is just something totally different. If cancelling orders was wrong on its own, why would regulators even let you do it?
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You are coming at this from the perspective that spoofing is somehow immoral or illegal while I am saying that it is just another trading strategy. The real question is, is bluffing wrong/immoral/illegal in markets? And my answer is no. I believe the market can take care of itself. If a person continually bluffs, you can bet that they will get nailed one day and voila, that behavior is taken care of without the need to regulate or take people to court. I understand your perspective, but I think it is completely the wrong way to view and approach the problem.
 
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