ECHOtrade's solution to new daytrading rule.

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Hitman,

You are still dancing around the question...

Are you employed by Worldco in any capacity other than in the usual sense as a trader?

Are you employed by Worldco or do you receive rumuneration in any form from Worldco to recruit new clients on internet message boards or otherwise?

A simple YES or NO will suffice.

tradeRX
 
Hitman,

With all the respect, if you can't back up a claim with proof, simply don't make it.

When you say things like: "ABSOLUTELY STUPID ... ABSOLUTELY IGNORANT" suggesting that you are way above everyone, you should be able to handle what's going to come back to you. Your choice of words has been nothing short of ... well I'm not going to go there.

Next, when you make claims such as:

"I am very sure there are many retail brokers who blew up too and took its client's money with it"

"there is no if's and why's about it, I am offering a solution with a much higher survival rate."

You better be able to back it up, which you haven't been able to. There are other statements which you make that are total BS, but I think these two are enough to illustrate my point.

You didn't answer my questions, which means you were not able to backup your claims, and you want me to answer your question.

"Now answer my question, give me one reason, any one advantage, why should someone be playing his small potato IB account when he can work at a prop. firm without his own capital on the line. You can't."

Before I answer your question, I want you to know that I find your language offensive and disrespectful to those who trade small accounts. "Small Potato"

My answer consists of two elements. The first is the environment of a trading office in which over 70% of the traders lose their money (I can back this up!). I wouldn't want to be around that, but then again there is something wrong with me as you suggested. The second element is simply leverage. At one point or another the 10-1 or 30-1 can kill a trader when they get to the point of trading their own money at a prop firm. this point might seem minute to you, but I have seen it too many times, so I will stand on this point forever!

Although I don't belong to the small account category. (check out the screen shot http://www.iwinfree.com/sniper3.gif scroll all the way to the right. You should be able to see the size of my trades on the confirmation window between the two level II screens. The three blue lines were closing my open position. You can do the math there.) I still believe that what you think are the benefits of a prop firm for the small guy actually represents the danger to him as well. This is just my opinion.

Finally, I'm throwing in the towel. I don't have what it takes to argue with someone who hasn't seen as much as I have and makes claims he cannot backup. So don't even bother to respond.

Leaving to Europe tomorrow, will be back in a month or so. It's your show now.

Enjoy,

Bill
 
Sorry to go off topic, but we have been on this topic before and I would just like to end this once and for all.

TraderRX:

No I am not employeed in any way by Worldco other than a prop. trader. Yes there are financial incentives for people to work at Worldco if they mention my name, and I am going to discuss it in greater depth with management soon. However, none of this will impact the trader who wish to join our firm, he gets the same treatment as if he came across our ads in New York Times. I wonder why this is so hard to understand, Rtharp gets a 5% commission rebate for every new trader he brings in, and I don't do things for free either. On the other hand, it is out of firm's pocket, it has nothing to do with the recruit so I don't see any problem with that. Besides, I am very happy to provide you a list of every single prop. firm in New York and you can call them up and compare, I would not recommend anyone joining Worldco if they can get a BETTER offer elsewhere. A lot of people e-mailed me about their offers at other places and I gave unbiased pros and cons of each (I even said on this very thread that Echo may be better for already proficient traders).

Is this some sort of scam? No, it is a very serious business, and yes, there are a lot of traders who are about to lose the ability to pursue their dreams, and I am offering an alternative that is not only a viable solution but SUPERIOR to what they already had in everyway. You tell me WHAT HELL DO YOU HAVE TO LOSE trading other people's money?

Sniper:

Obviously, the small potato comment is NOT directed at you, I have a very comprehensive table of income level with which I use to judge the capability of the traders (particularly day traders). It is the only thing I use to judge a trader's capability, how much do they make a year? If you make less than 100K a year then you are without a question a small potato, and I am currently in that boat myself until proven other wise. By that logic, anyone having 25K account problems is a small potato.

A firm like Worldco doesn't have 70% losers or they won't be in business for 7 years while allowing others to trade with their own capital don't you think? Having more margin is always a good thing if you know what you are doing. Quite a few traders at my firm hit high six figure to seven figures on surprise Fed. rate cuts. It is like having high powered explosives, if you know what you are doing, it is a good thing to have. Besides, margin rates should not even apply to those who I REPEAT, START TRADING WITH FIRM CAPITAL . . . Come up with a valid argument against this FACT please . . . What is the catch if your own money is NOT on the line?

This business is not about achieving statistical marvels, be nice to others, warm feelings. It is a blood thirsty, cutting edge, war fare. And at the end of the year, there is only one thing that matters, cold hard cash. If you are in this business, that is the single most important number. This is the only number I respect. For now, I consider myself to be nothing more than a small potato among profitable traders, I haven't even tapped even 1% of what is possible yet, and I look for ways to unlock my potential. It is not about being offensive or disrespectful, it is about face the reality of this high turn over business and find a way to be still playing this game 5 years from now! SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST.

0 - You lost money/blew up, the dead zone.

1 - Break even, get a little change after commissions to the extent of a tax rebate. In my opinion, just defending your turf is a pretty daunting task, when I started I was giving up ground every day and I would have gladly pocketed $10 a day if I could.

2 - Making enough money for a part time pursuit, nice extra cash but not enough to quit your full time job. A few K to 25K a year.

3 - 25-50K a year, barely replaces a full time job but you can get that money easy elsewhere for a lot less stress. Sure trading is fun but I honestly hated my job after a $4K down day even if I made $5K two days before . . . Sure I love trading but we all know the possbility of blow up and day trading is about as useful as playing at a casino on a resume.

4 - 50-100K a year, you are making more money than many people at other jobs but still not the type of money you should be making for something without stability. This is where I will probably be after the year is over.

5 - 100-250K a year, the sweet spot of trading, only when I get here I would consider myself truly arrived. It is highly unlikely for most people to make this much money regardless of what their professions are, only now you can even start to consider yourself a success, but obviously, there is more.

6 - 250-500K a year, now very very few people can touch your raw income potential. Coupled with the total freedom this is the ultimate job.

7 - 500K-1 million a year, absolutely sick. You will need to AVERAGE 2-4K a day to make that happen. It is one thing to make 2-4K a day every once in a while, it is a totally totally different game to AVERAGE that. Even during my best months I have never, ever AVERAGED 1000 a day, and I had many multiple K day's in that stretch. It takes a lot to get to that level, and I believe this is probably where Candle is. Not only you have to average that much during your best months, you have to be able to do that for summer time too!

8 - A couple of millions a year, in many ways, this is the ceiling for super star traders. This is the black belt of trading for individual traders.

9 - trading desk manager / hedge fund manager / institutional traders / individual traders with SUPER SIZE pockets, the potential door to 8 figures. (My boss made 7 million in March alone off commissions/payouts, and a hedge fund man at our firm made 40 million in 1999 and 25 million in 2000 (for his OWN POCKET!).

10 - Reserved for legends such as George Soros . . .
 
You win, I lose end of story.

Good luck soliciting business on these boards. Seems like you are doing a great job, by your own admission of the emails you are receiving. It's too bad you have financial interest in the readers here. But as you said yourself, "You don't work for free." Why should you? So you are in a way admitting that posting here is a part of your job (work - get it!) This was exactly my point from the beginning.

See you in a month,

Bill
 
I don't think I am advertising anything here. My entire argument is IF YOU ARE A NEWBIE, GO CHECK OUT SOME OF THE PROP. FIRMS IN THE AREA. I don't care which firm, it is for your own sake, for your own good, that you should start at a prop. firm that requires little to no capital contribution.

If you call that advertisement, be my guest, it is called keeping others informed . . . I would gladly argue with anyone until the cows come home why prop. trading is far superior for anyone who is interested in day trading but not hitting level 5 or higher on my income scale.

Remember I answer a lot of e-mails a day, and I give you nothing but most honest opinions and unbiased answers. When people from this board actually came to our office I answer every single question they have and show them every single piece of software on my computer. Whatever compensation I receive is completely transparent to the new trader, and I help them in any way I can, include the blow by blow's.

It is not advertising, it is networking, it is about informing the uninformed. For the last time, give me one reason why shouldn't a newbie with a small potato account try out one of those prop. firms?

Admit it, the biggest challenge for many talented rookies is THE lack of capital, at a prop. firm, that is no longer an issue, let's not even go into better players to play with than your typical message boards and chat rooms, better software/equipment than you normally would be able to afford, bullets, tax advantages . . .

Sure, you may make it trading on your own, but why take the long way when a better shortcut is potentially in your area?
 
Hitman:
>I am 21.

Nailed that one.

>Instead of trying to act like some senior
>citizen about the good old days, give me
>one SOLID argument on my statement below:

"Senior citizen"...giggles (I'm 38)

Hitman's statement to which he above refers:
>For anyone who CAN trade at a professional
>firm like Worldco and NOT giving it a shot, ...
{snip}
>ABSOLUTELY STUPID . . .
{snip}
>ABSOLUTELY IGNORANT.


OK Hitman -- so you are asking me to prove that there is more than one intelligent, non-stupid, non-absolutely-ignorant way to trade? WOW, that's such a tough assignment I have no idea if I have the strength nor time left in my life. :-)

Oh, alright...I'll give it a shot...

Uh, how about someone who is not comfortable trading someone elses money? How about they have plenty capitol of their own and every time they even utilized margin they realize that they think too much about the money and not enough about the trading? They understand that the biggest part of this game is the mind game and so they profitably trade with their own bucks and go on to live a happy and prosperous life. ABSOLUTELY IGNORANT? ABSOLUTELY STUPID?

Uh, how about someone who, through much experimentation, has come up with a very unusual trading mechanism that provides unsurpassed liquidity upon demand at the inside price. This trader would no have access to this liquidity at your prop firm and thus would lose a huge trading advantage. ABSOLUTELY IGNORANT? ABSOLUTELY STUPID?

I could go on of course, but then it would be pretty much wasted energy since most people already realize that when someone states that any way other than their way is STUPID and IGNORANT that person is just being...well, STUPID and IGNORANT.

I'm really happy that you have found a good way for you to trade. I'm sure that your way is also the right way for some others. I refuse to believe that my actions in this matter (though contrary to your beliefs) are ignorant or stupid -- especially as I sit at home in my fuzzy slippers enjoying my time, my environment and my money.

JB
 
Think of what you are saying, how about I am not comfortable trading someone else's money? How can I NOT feel comfortable about trading someone else's money if I am NOT liable for ANY losses? Besides, this is not trading a grandma's IRA, it is trading a large firm's deep pocket. You have to be ignorant and stupid if you are not comfortable doing that.

For the last time, I am not referring to traders who have already arrived, I am referring to traders who are not making at least 100K a year (or any real money at all) because of CAPITAL ISSUES. The majority of people on this board fall under this category, including myself.

I don't understand your "special trading mechanism part", I am not aware of any order a homer can place that I can't. If you are talking about massive sizes it doesn't take that long for people at this type of firms to get super sizes.

Also, I want to make it clear that anyone who comes to Worldco can mention my name at the desk ONLY IF THEY WANT TO. I DO NOT CARE if they don't mention my name and I get nothing to show for it. Trading is where I expect to make my living, not marketing, at least not until I have my own desk.

It is NOT advertising, it is keeping others informed. Particularly those who are complaining about the new 25K rule . . . If you think that is taking advantage of a special situation, that's how companies seize opportunities.
 
>Think of what you are saying, how
>about I am not comfortable trading
>someone else's money?

Clearly I wasn't referring to you Hitman. You obviously are very comfortable trading other peoples money and that's just fine. Some people are more independent and find themselves much more calm when self sufficient. This hardly makes them stupid and ignorant. People should trade the way they are most comfortable -- any other way is a pretty good recipe for disaster.

>I don't understand your "special
>trading mechanism part"

I'm sure you don't...you're too stuck in you "there is only one way" to imagine that perhaps there are others who have thought out of the box and discovered some hidden advantages.

>I am not aware of any order a homer
>can place that I can't.

You can place it...anyone can, you just don't know how (and you can't make it happen through your prop firm). It's got nothing to do with big size, but it is how my buddy turns little money into big money year after year in one stock going only long (course he is stupid and ignorant and should have traded at a prop firm rather than striking out on his own and developing unique and highly successful methods)

JB
 
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