Easter: The silliest story ever told

[jem]

Quote from stu:

That's not true.
You were putting forward an attributed non scientific quote of a physicist , on a matter which is not supported in science.

You will never accept the science because you are so emotional. By the way I used the words knows and observes. That was an absolutely correct statement.

 

[bigarrow]

Quote from jem:

You will never accept the science because you are so emotional. By the way I used the words knows and observes. That was an absolutely correct statement.

I understand people believe what they believe and it's probably hard wired in us to need a creation and afterlife story, at least emotionally, but there is no science to support the christian story, it isn't there. You can argue how did it all start or was it always here, you may or may not buy the big bang theory. It doesn't matter all that is no argument or proof for Jesus. And that is all Christians care about, how can they prove that the Jesus and bible story is real. They don't won't proof of any other god or religion or creation story to be true just their story. Gotta go now Pat Robetson's 700 club is coming on the tube and I gotta press the afflicted part to the screen to get healed. Come on not that part, my knee is hurting me.

 

[I am...]

Quote from Free Thinker:

It's Easter. Once again, the masses will gawp in awe at a bizarre and unbelievable story…because it is such a good example of how religion will piggy-back on our cognitive biases.

The true meaning of the parody of the cross has been mangled beyond recognition by piggy-backing our cognitive biases on top of an otherwise eloquent teaching statement.

Jes(us) was/is a teacher for *the Teacher*, who teaches anyone who will listen what is wisdom. The cross was a teaching device whose lessons are lost on the closed-minded who prefer to paint it the color of their cognitive biases (ie. red).

You all know the Easter story: a god turns into a man, gets tortured and killed, rises from the dead, and somehow this act makes us all better.

This is an example of misinterpretation of the lessons the T/teachers were intending to teach. This kind of interpretation actually piggy-backs on the cognitive biases of those who have already piggy-backed their erroneous interpretations on the scenes and scenarios. So it's a double-back-piggy-back-track-hack.

It's a tale best left unexamined,

...by those who prefer to just piggy-back on the conventional wisdom...

because it makes no sense.

...as told by those who have already piggy-backed their cognitive biases onto an otherwise eloquent statement of an advanced T/teacher.

We are supposed to wallow in an emotional thrill that taps deep into our social consciousness, not think about what the story actually says.

By all means, examine the nonsensical interpretation of the events. But if you stop with a closed mind then the nonsensical interpreters have won your allegiance to death. As a rule of thumb:

Open mind = open tomb
Closed mind = closed tomb

Hint: Time is a tomb for a dead Truth.

The part of the story that works for us is the idea of self-sacrifice.

Human existence is staged on the sacrifice of our Soul. Jes(us) stood for "us", meaning, this is what we are doing to ourselves when we sacrifice our Soul.

Sacrifice "works" for humans because without it, they could not seem to exist. In actuality, humanity doesn't exist any more than elves exist. For humanity to seem to exist, it must first sacrifice *the Truth* so that mythological creatures can "live". Therefore, sacrifice is central to a mythological creatures (ie. human beings) "existence".

Consequently, if and when a T/teacher comes to tell humans the truth, his story will be contradicted, or otherwise *killed* by the cognitive biases of that which depends on sacrifice for it's "life" (humanity).

That's potent; we are social animals, and an individual sacrificing him or her self for the greater good has a lot of impact, materially and symbolically, and also stirs up powerful and conflicting emotions.

Social animals? Humans are better understood as sacrificial animals. Since their existence derives from the sacrifice of *the Truth*, sacrifice is built into their cognitive biases. Sacrifice is highly valued by that which depends on it for its survival ("life"). That which lives by sacrifice also dies by sacrifice. Jes(us) (on the cross) stood for all (us) who live (and die) by sacrifice.

Think about a real example, a soldier throwing himself on a hand grenade to protect his compatriots; it's a noble sacrifice, it means that one dies so that others may live, it makes us wonder whether we would be brave enough (or crazy enough, or despairing enough) to do the same.

That which depends on sacrifice for it's "life" (ie. humanity) has already sacrificed it's Self...*the Truth*. The sacrifice of *the Truth* is staged before the world of humanity begins...in order for the world of humanity to begin!

Stated another way, *the Truth* must die in order for *the lie* to "live". The world of humanity is a lie of cosmic proportions. All scenes and scenarios that take place within its time-frame are repeats of that which has been staged before the fantastical formation of even the very first electron.

Therefore, the scene/scenario described above is a repeat of prehistoric themes. The grenade symbolizes a lie. The lie kills the one who symbolizes *the Truth*, who becomes a hero to that which depends on the death of *the Truth* for it's so-called "life".

We look at someone who does that as a genuine hero, someone who cared so much for his fellow human beings that he would make the supreme sacrifice to spare them.

*The Truth* is a hero to a lie...because without its death, the lie/liar could not live. Coincidentally, the death of *the Truth* is dogmatically central to that which teaches a lie, and depends on a lie for its "life".

So that's the aspect of the Easter story that the Christian faith milks for everything it's worth.

The Christian faith - a collection of cognitive biases - depends on the death of the T/truth for its "life". So, the lessons of the cross are beaten to shreds and mangled beyond recognition.

The truth is, you don't have to kill the truth for the truth to be true. But you do have to kill the truth for a lie to be true. Beware of that which depends on the death of the truth for its life.

The suffering of Jesus is amplified:

That's one of the ways the truth is beaten to death and mangled beyond recognition. The truth is; Jesus did not suffer through his ordeal. Yes, you heard me right. He refused to suffer what would normally cause great pain to anyone who did not know what Jesus knew. This was included in the overall "lesson" of the spectacle. No one seems to have noticed it except a Roman guard who is said to have said, "Surely this was the Son of God". Why? Because his response to the scenario was not like the kind of responses the guard had seen from mere men.

look at the weird obsession Catholics show for graphic portrayals of the bloody, twisted, tormented Christ on a stick;

Using the cross scenario this way is functionally an assault. Assault like this serves the same purpose as does terrorism. Whoever says Jesus suffered pain equal to the scenario is forwarding a psychic attack, asking for submission by force of intimidation.

look at Gibson's horrible torture porn movie,

I have not yet seen it. Probably won't ever.

The Passion, that lingers sickly over every lash of the whip, every beating, the long slow bleeding death.

This is a symbol. The symbolism is rich. The symbol stands for our world, which is made up of our thoughts. The secret of salvation is this: We are doing this to our S/self. In modern slang, this is "what's happenin". This is what has been happening since the beginning of the world. It's what the world - as a symbol itself - represents.

The ugly death of *the Truth* is prehistoric in it's staging. It's what we think we've done that this world has become our home. I'm speaking of a trans-temporal mind that makes a world of time/mass/diversity. This is what it is doing with our Self...our Soul.

This is the symbol of the status quo. Because of the way we think, this is what we've been getting since the beginning of time. If we think the way we've always thought, this is what we'll always get. If there's any doubt that we are getting this, just look around, read the newspaper, look at your "life" experiences. Somewhere, daily, someone experiences something similar. Everywhere, everyone experiences less than joy and bliss. Everywhere, everyone is vulnerable and deprived. Always, fear is present. Confusion rules the day. Everyone carries some kind of cross. Over time, everyone carries a heavy cross. We all feel heavily laden from time to time, pressed down by the pressures of stress, pulled in two different directions. Everyone feels pinned down by limitations seemingly thrust upon them.

In accepting this symbol, Jes(us) stood for us. We have all accepted this for our S/selves. We have all volunteered to come into this world and be born to die.

 

[I am...]

Continued from above...

This isn't just a quick self-sacrifice,

The sacrifice of Self/Soul takes place over time...all of time. This is the picture of what is happening over millions of years. Over time, everything dies. Most of the time it's not pretty. Jes(us) is a symbol of everything and everyone. Jes(us), on the cross, is a symbol of our entire universe of time/mass/diversity, in which even our "light" will eventually die (our stars burn out).

Jesus suffered a long lingering death, just for you.

Yes, just for us to learn something. If we don't learn anything from it, then the effort is wasted on us. The effort can only be wasted on those of us who continue to accept the status quo...who want to be crucified, so-to-speak. It's not that difficult to interpret the lesson rightly. It takes great effort to misinterpret the lesson, and maintain a smokescreen of b.s. for hundreds of years.

He must have cared about you so much!

As a matter of fact he did...enough to teach some very important lesson relative to ourselves, our minds and our world. But he didn't care to suffer. Do he didn't. Suffering is not caring, either for oneself, or for another. Those who punish themselves are usually the first to punish others. Misery loves company. Joy loves company too. We assume he could not feel joy during this experience. That's because we feel limited by mass/matter, and can't relate to those of us who have managed to make mind master over matter. The law Jesus functioned under was this: The innocent mind cannot suffer. Jesus was innocent, and knew it, and so, he did not suffer.

Uh, except for one thing. Where's the grenade? What is he saving us from?

The bulk of Jes(us) teachings would save us from the wrath of God, so-to-speak. Meaning, our notions of an angry, vengeful God are erroneous and unfounded. The grenade, as I mentioned earlier, symbolizes the great lie that blasphemes the nature of (attributes of) *Our Father*. Lies masquerade as "God", and threaten us with the most perverse punishments. We must be saved from the root causes of our lies about our Self and our Go(o)d Father. Salvation is entirely psychological. Until we are saved, we will fall victim to our own psy ops campaign, initiated at our own expense, since before time. We would do well to save ourselves from any religion that promotes a false image of Our Father and his Son. Our thoughts about Our Father and Our Self are what make up the various aspects of the world we see and think is our home. We think we live here. That's not what's happening. We are dying here. It's because we think Go(o)d is dead and/or dying. It's because we think Go(o)d is worthy of punishment and death. And every death, anywhere, anytime, is symbolic of the death of Go(o)d. Death anywhere is "proof" that *Life* is not *the Truth*.

So what does a T/teacher save us from? From what we made with our imagination. From a world of time/mass/diversity. From the insanity that puts it together and makes the world turn. A T/teacher saves our minds from the insanity of the "god of this world", and it's works.

This is where the myth falls apart. Don't look! Be distracted by the crown of thorns and the spear and the nails, and by the magic trick on the third day! Whatever you do, don't question the sacrifice!

Actually, the fear-mongers are asking you not to do what I am doing today. I'm looking at it, with you, in a new way. I'm not distracted by the gore. I'm not casting a spell over your minds. I'm interpreting the message rightly, so that we can learn something from the lesson. You see, the cross is a teaching device...like a parable. It's a parable told with deeds. So it's a kind of parody. It's a parody of the whole history of the world since the beginning. It tells what the world is all about, how it begins...with the staged death of *the Truth*.

Here, then, is the shocking truth that "they" don't want you to find out. They tell us that *the Truth* substitutes for *us*. Actually, its the other way around. We, as "human beings"...are substitutes for *the Truth*. You heard me right. The son of man (mankind) is dying for the Son of Go(o)d. That's how much we "care". We're not doing it for the Son of Go(o)d. We're doing it against our true Self. Jes(us) died...for us to understand this!

Because, unfortunately, Jesus isn't saving us from anything real,

The god of this world isn't real. Our world isn't real. The thoughts that serves as premise/foundation for this world are not real nor true. Therefore, technically, this is a true statement. Salvation is entirely psychological...for a mind that imagines all that is not real. In fact, salvation is for a mind that imagines instead of knows. Functionally, knowing is what saves us, while imagination is what makes a world a killing field and kills everything under the sun...including the sun. Knowing is a natural attribute of the Son of Go(o)d. Believing in what he imagines is unnatural. Hence, not only is our little world unnatural, it's also unreal. Here's the kicker: Our world is inside our own mind.

Bottom line: Salvation saves our Self from our self-concepts.

and he made no change in the world with his death.

The world is always changing. The more it changes, the more it stays the same. The fact that it's changing will prove to be its undoing. It will eventually come apart over the next million years or so. It will be taken apart by those of us who made it. It will be taken apart by those who will, in time, come to understand the message of the T/teachers who understand what Jes(us) understood. This takes time. It's happening as we speak, imperceptibly, behind the scenes. It depends on learning, understanding, and about changing our mind...one mind at a time...one lesson at a time. Nothing is forces.

Ask a Christian, and they'll tell us he's saving us from Original Sin, our flawed, weak, inherently wicked natures.

As a rule of thumb, we are being saved from just about everything Christians have told us since they made the truth a "heresy". The Original Sin isn't what they tell us it is. And so, we are asked to accept a "solution" for a "problem" that is entirely made up and doesn't exist.

Having said that, we're not off the hook. We all believe in a false premise. The premise is entirely made up, doesn't exist, and has not happened. We would not be experiencing the phenomenon of unique person-hood, separation, multiplicity, diversity and differences...if we did not believe in the *false* premise. Our belief in the false premise is what the "Original Sin" is all about. The Original Sin is technically a lie about our Self. Upon that lie is built our entire world of time/mass/diversity in which everyone is separated from everyone else...or so it seems. Our world, to quote Jesus, is built on a foundation of "sand".

In the beginning, we made *the Truth* a "heresy". And we've been doing it ever since. To put things in perspective, let me redefine the notion of "sin". Let s.i.n. be an acronym for *seriously insane notions* about our Self...about Go(o)d...about Our Go(o)d Father. The world we think we live in is a collection of untold notions all founded upon an initial notion, insane, and taken seriously. Put into perspective, it is a joke on our Self. It is only when we take it seriously that it becomes diabolically "evil". We need to lighten up and ask ourselves, "Why so serious?". Once again, the secret of salvation is that we are doing this to our Self.

 

[I am...]

Continued from above...

But what that sin is is an act committed by a pair of mythological ancestors (they didn't even actually exist), and the sin was being willful, curious and disobedient to an imaginary man in the sky — it was a non-existent crime.

This is not far from the truth. The main thing to remember, is that no matter how we frame our genesis as *human beings*...it's not the truth! This also includes myths that tell us we came from slime, mud, and/or an amoeba! All genesis stories of human existence, or for that matter, the existence of matter...are all false. The world is not real. It's made up of our imagination, in our own mind. The whole thing is a fiction from beginning to end and everywhere in between. Another word for fiction is it's a lie!. All you have to do is remember: A lie kills the truth.

I don't believe in being held accountable for my ancestor's weaknesses (as Patti Smith sang, "Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine"),

Like I said, we've got it backwards. The Truth does not die for us. We - as *human dyings* - are dying for the sins of the Truth, falsely pinned on our Self because of false testimony about our Self. We are dying for misrepresenting Life itself. Meanwhile, we are dying for the truth, or for lack thereof.

and in this case I don't even consider what they did to be wrong.

Perhaps that is the message we ought to be getting from the genesis story of Hebrew folklore. The wise among us should be able to see that, like the bumper stickers say, "Eve was framed". Indeed, every genesis story that says humans exist has framed *the Truth* to take a fall. Every genesis story is fundamentally ridiculous and not worth our faith. Perhaps this is the meaning of such a ridiculous story in the first place!

Likewise, we ought not to believe in separation from Go(o)d, since that is what is driving the world we see (in our mind). We see everything and everyone separated from each other and from Go(o)d. This is what we believe, if we believe we are human beings. But we don't have to believe it! It's really ridiculous when you think about it.

So Jesus suffered for an act that I would consider a virtue, committed by myths against a myth? That's no hand grenade, that's a fairy tale. Nobody needs to die to protect me from a fairy tale.

That's true. But you do believe in fairy tales...if you die. You just aren't aware of the fairy tales you do believe in, as you are distracted by the fairy tales you don't believe in!

Next problem: what Jesus did didn't even protect me from that fairy tale!

That's true too. What you learn from what he did is what would protect you...if you believed it. If you believe what Jesus believed, and disbelieve what Jesus disbelieved, the outcome of your present crucifixion (remember, everybody is crucified) would be different, as it was different for Jesus.

Imagine that in some metaphorical sense it was true that there was some heritable taint infecting the entire human race, passed from generation to generation and making us more prone to do wickedness.

What we have inherited are meaningless memes. Memes, passed from mind to mind...kill. What we believe about our ancestors...kills us. If we believe what our dead ancestors believed...we will die. Most of our religions - our surrogate parents - pass these memes on...killing us. Any religion that makes us out to be sinners - as a matter of fact - is making us more prone to do wickedness. Collectively, we still believe what the the mind that makes this world believes. We think like it thinks, having been made in its ugly image. Salvation calls for a change at fundamental levels of our collective subconscious mind. Subconscious is just a fancy word for hidden - secreted - compartments of a fragmented, rather schizophrenic mind.

Instead of a hand grenade, we've been fed a poison that's going to hurt us slowly and horribly.

Yes. No matter what we call it (ie. meme), a lie will kill the truth. The truth is, truth is a Being. We are that Being. That Being is Life itself. A lie against this Being, told by a rogue fragment of it's mind, will tend to kill this Being in effigy. Human beings are the effigy - substitutes - for this Being. They are killed instead...because this Being is ultimately invulnerable (can't be killed). On the other hand, if this Being can be made into something vulnerable, then it can be killed, yes? Bodies are vulnerable. That's what they are for. They are "born to die".

How does having the sick butcher the doctor make us better?

Indeed, when we accept traditional memes from our surrogate parents, our minds will continue to be *sick*. in turn, our surrogate parents accept their memes from their surrogate parents who accept them from the god of this world. The god of this world is technically insane...more diabolical than Heath Ledgers "Joker" in the movie "Batman". It's goal is to survive at our expense. It lives so long as we die...over and over again. Indeed, we are the collective Joker, pitted in a life-death struggle against our Self. As long as we are uncertain about our allegiances, we will continue to recommend to each other remedies/solutions that don't work.

I can guess how it will be rationalized: that having the doctor make such a sacrifice will make us believe more sincerely in his prescription.

Actually, Jesus did have a prescription. It's just been suppressed, lost in a battle for mind-share among meme maddened mongers of mainstream murder. Under this oppression, the message of the cross has yet - in time - to be understood in a way that it was intended to help us. Properly understood, it can be central to our world-view. And a world seen rightly is central to our salvation. The suppression of the truth is not new! It's been going on since before the beginning of time. What we are witnessing, with the misrepresentation of Jesus' teachings by a pop(ular) "orthodoxy", is a repeat of history. We have not yet learned the lesson...so it repeats until we do.

But again, that's religion leeching off a cognitive shortcut our brains take, that we'll assume it must have been a very, very important message if the messenger was willing to die for it.

It is important. It's so important that legions of liars have martial-ed pounds of propaganda to put it down. Remember, it's important that we sacrifice *the Truth* if we - as human beings - are to be "saved". It's simple: The death of the truth saves lies. Human beings are technically lies against our Self. If we want to be our Self, we must lay down our lying lives, and learn to really Live (get a Life). This calls for the complete surrender of what we believe is our "self"...our entire person-hood...our persona. this calls for the end of our special, uniquely differentiated - separate - "selves". Without our Self, we are just elves...mythological beings. We believe in our elves (self-concepts) more than we believe in our Selves. That's the problem.

That's invalid — people die stupidly for bad reasons all the time.

Indeed. Every death is for some bad reasons. Happens all the time, all through time.

The only test that matters is whether the doctor actually helps people with his actions.

Well, at least Jesus was one doctor that helped his Self. I'm sure he will help us if we are willing to help our Self as well. Meanwhile, beware the church adjacent a cemetery.

Another problem: Jesus cheats.

This only proves that you believe in the organized religion that (mis)represents him. It has served it's purpose: To turn us against truth-tellers, bury the truth, and make sure it stays six feet under.

We're supposed to believe that he's saving us from an imaginary ancestral sin, and that he's doing so by dying…but he doesn't!

Of course. Properly understood, his teachings save us from an imaginary ancestral sin. Part of that "sin" (seriously insane notion) is that death is the truth. So, by not dying when he should have died...this should tell us that death is not the truth. Instead, it should tell us that Life is the truth. So yah, by dying - but not really - he saves us from what we've imagined to be true...if we are willing to learn the lesson rightly.

 

[I am...]

Continued from above...

He comes back three days (OK, actually a day and a half) later, perfectly healthy except for a few holes which don't seem to perturb him much, and he gets to magically zoom up into the sky and live forever in his dad's palace. This is no sacrifice at all.

That's right. It wasn't a sacrifice. So why do we continue to believe the memes of our surrogate parents? The moral of the story is that the truth can't be killed, no matter how many lies are told against it, and therefore the truth was not killed. Neither was the truth harmed at all! The truth is still true, even today. And the truth will be true till the end of time. In fact, the truth will bring time to an end...over time (a million years or so). If the truth has not been hurt, then no one is guilty. The moral of the story is that guilt is not the truth. This - the truth that innocence is the universal truth - serves as a basis for the kind of *forgiveness* that is necessary to bring our made up little world to it's proper end. Forgiveness can be - and must be - offered universally, before it will end. Guilt serves to keep it (the blame game) going.

Without guilt, there can be no "world" as we think we know it. Jesus' death-defying stunt is the beginning of the end of a guilt-as-truth paradigm. Guilt functions to hold a world of time and mass together just as gravity functions to pin us "down to earth". Without guilt, there is no world...no human race. That's why Jesus paraded himself around to show that he was unharmed by his ordeal. Likewise, we cannot be harmed by our ordeals, regardless we appear to die. We don't die. We just continue to be born to die...until the truth sets us free. The truth is, we are guiltless for what we think we did to *the Truth* before a world-of-hurt was founded upon our malicious assumptions (seriously insane notions). Our assumptions have never been true, and so, do not change who we are, our Self...the "Son of Go(o)d".

The end...

Christ!

 

[peilthetraveler]

Quote from bigarrow:

I understand people believe what they believe and it's probably hard wired in us to need a creation and afterlife story, at least emotionally, but there is no science to support the christian story, it isn't there. You can argue how did it all start or was it always here, you may or may not buy the big bang theory. It doesn't matter all that is no argument or proof for Jesus.

Many Atheists love to say there is no evidence that the bible is true. One says it, then others just parrot that atheist as if what he said was true. They dont go looking to see if there is evidence but there is. Read a book called "Annals of the World" It uses math,astronomy and other sciences, not to mention countless other sources that explain from the creation of the world to 70 a.d., the destruction of the jewish temple. (After Christ died, there was no need for a temple to sacrifice animals to since Christ made the last and perfect sacrifce for all.)

85% of the information in the annals of the world comes from non-biblical sources. Only 15% is from the bible itself, yet all the evidence points to the bible being true. It was only recently translated into English as the original language it was written in was Latin.

In it you will get more than just biblical history, you will get egyptian, greek, roman and other history lessons. If you want evidence,there it is for you. 15 bucks is all you need to find out if there is proof that you claim there isnt.

http://www.amazon.com/Annals-World-James-Ussher/dp/0890515107/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

 

[I am...]

Quote from peilthetraveler:

In it you will get more than just biblical history, you will get egyptian, greek, roman and other history lessons. If you want evidence,there it is for you. 15 bucks is all you need to find out if there is proof that you claim there isnt.

http://www.amazon.com/Annals-World-James-Ussher/dp/0890515107/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

The bible is as true as Dan Brown's "DaVinci Code". If you study history, you will find a place called "Rome". Rome is a place mentioned in the DaVinci Code. Therefore, the DaVinci Code is entirely true, right?

Likewise, the bible mentions a place called Jerusalem. Archaeologists have confirmed that Jerusalem was an actual city going way way back. Still is (a city) for that matter. So, the bible - and everything it says about Jesus - is entirely true, right?

 

[I am...]

Quote from jem:

The belief that the Creator gave his children a protected life. The children wanted free will and full knowledge. He knew they would destroy themselves so he made provisions for their salvation.

You're kidding, right? A good Creator would give his children everything he has, including a totality of knowledge. Anything less would be ungodly. Besides that, your creed already acknowledges that the Father gave his Son equality with the totality that is Go(o)d. Therefore, given that Go(o)d is able, there is no reason to think that Go(o)d gives the totality of everything Go(o)d is to that which populates the World of Go(o)d. Why in the world would you think that less than full knowledge is good, and full knowledge is somehow bad or dangerous?

 

[stu]

Quote from jem:

You will never accept the science because you are so emotional. By the way I used the words knows and observes. That was an absolutely correct statement.

Before accepting something is science , don't you think it would be much better if it actually was science? No...didn't think you would.

I know you are used to blindly accepting everything and anything that suggests to your severely restricted viewpoint a so called creator must have created everything, but what you quoted still isn't science.

Mindlessly repeating it is , and insisting it is, won't change that fact that, it isn't.