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E-mini Rookie Trading Journal
- Thread starter bronks
- Start date
Originally posted by bronks
Entry-entry-entry... I cannot help but feel how important they are on the NQ if your playing a tight game. I don't know why stops are given so much attention when entries, IMHO, deserve at least equal, if not higher billing. Stops require discipline, entries require judgement and clear thought. Stops I honestly don't think about. It gets there and I take it. But it's the ENTRY that is the cause and effect of the stop. For me anyways.
Bronks,
I couldn't disagree with you more. Its exit exit exit. If I were you I would be somewhat disappointed with my trading performance for the day. Firstly, you did not follow your plan. 1 out of 5 trades actually hit your target. The rest were just scalps. If you would of held onto your plan of selling at a 5 point profit and stop loss of 2-3.5 points you probably would of made more.
There is an old saying that goes.. People "hope" that their losers will turn around and they "fear" that their winners will fall down. In your case.. you fear that your winners will come down.. and fail to let them run except for that last trade.
You post all your trades to get feedback from others and I am providing you with healthy criticism. Although you were net profit for the day.. in the long run.. I am talking about months and years out.. if you keep up this style.. either #1 you will be out of the game.. or #2 your profits will be no greater than all the commissions you paid out. I still see no consistency in your style and overall fly by the seat of your pants. I've been trading fulltime for 5+ years I've seen many "fired" from this business because of some of the things you continue to do.
I might sound a bit harsh.. but I am a straight talker not a cheerleader.
---MIKE
Mike--
Once I take a trade, not only do I have a price stop, but also a price action/ time stop. If the trade doesn't start behaving right within a few minutes, it tells me my entry wasn't as good as it should be, and I bail. It's been well documented on my previous posts what happens to me when I open my stops up... I get killed. I agree with you that I need to make more points but I ain't forcing the issue. For some reason this style of trading suits me for now. Yes, I am worried that a crummy coupla days trading will wipe out all my gains, as I do believe you need some double digit gain days to off-set this. But, at this point I'm taking one day at a time.
Why would I be disappointed with my trading today? Maybe it would disappoint you, but brother, I'll take 5 points anyday. I'm not saying I'm thrilled but if I didn't allow myself a little satisfaction, this would never be fun as I would forever be in despair. Gotta smile sometime.
As for trades being willy-nilly, the chart is just showing part of the picture as a lot of my trades are based on price action and not chart formations.
Once I take a trade, not only do I have a price stop, but also a price action/ time stop. If the trade doesn't start behaving right within a few minutes, it tells me my entry wasn't as good as it should be, and I bail. It's been well documented on my previous posts what happens to me when I open my stops up... I get killed. I agree with you that I need to make more points but I ain't forcing the issue. For some reason this style of trading suits me for now. Yes, I am worried that a crummy coupla days trading will wipe out all my gains, as I do believe you need some double digit gain days to off-set this. But, at this point I'm taking one day at a time.
Why would I be disappointed with my trading today? Maybe it would disappoint you, but brother, I'll take 5 points anyday. I'm not saying I'm thrilled but if I didn't allow myself a little satisfaction, this would never be fun as I would forever be in despair. Gotta smile sometime.
As for trades being willy-nilly, the chart is just showing part of the picture as a lot of my trades are based on price action and not chart formations.
"If the trade doesn't start behaving right within a few minutes, it tells me my entry wasn't as good as it should be, and I bail"
Bronks,
For the sake of not sounding repetitive.. this is called trading by the seat of your pants.
Please answer the following questions..
What does behaving "right" mean? (not making a profit in x among a time? How do you consistently quantify such a thing.. or is it your natural instincts aka. gut feel?)
What does entry wasn't as good as it "should" be mean? (not getting the exact price you wanted? ( Again, How do you consistently quantify such a thing?)
-- Do you honestly think that your gut knows more about trade management than my gut or the best traders gut. Its all psychological ramble.
Have an exit and entry plan that is detached from your gut and based on sound principle and positive expectancy. If you trade like a human and use your gut.. than you will lose $ like 90% of all the humans that traded before you. If you trade like a machine and follow your plan to the extreme.. you will pump $ out like a an ATM machine.. (consistently). If you don't have a plan that is detailed, and consistent, then you are NOT ready to trade.
Last point, the best traders I know that make well over $1 million don't count a good day by how much $ they make. Its by how well they executed their plan.
--MIKE
Bronks,
For the sake of not sounding repetitive.. this is called trading by the seat of your pants.
Please answer the following questions..
What does behaving "right" mean? (not making a profit in x among a time? How do you consistently quantify such a thing.. or is it your natural instincts aka. gut feel?)
What does entry wasn't as good as it "should" be mean? (not getting the exact price you wanted? ( Again, How do you consistently quantify such a thing?)
-- Do you honestly think that your gut knows more about trade management than my gut or the best traders gut. Its all psychological ramble.
Have an exit and entry plan that is detached from your gut and based on sound principle and positive expectancy. If you trade like a human and use your gut.. than you will lose $ like 90% of all the humans that traded before you. If you trade like a machine and follow your plan to the extreme.. you will pump $ out like a an ATM machine.. (consistently). If you don't have a plan that is detailed, and consistent, then you are NOT ready to trade.
Last point, the best traders I know that make well over $1 million don't count a good day by how much $ they make. Its by how well they executed their plan.
--MIKE
Originally posted by bronks
Mike--
Once I take a trade, not only do I have a price stop, but also a price action/ time stop. If the trade doesn't start behaving right within a few minutes, it tells me my entry wasn't as good as it should be, and I bail. It's been well documented on my previous posts what happens to me when I open my stops up... I get killed. I agree with you that I need to make more points but I ain't forcing the issue. For some reason this style of trading suits me for now. Yes, I am worried that a crummy coupla days trading will wipe out all my gains, as I do believe you need some double digit gain days to off-set this. But, at this point I'm taking one day at a time.
Bronks, Mike is giving you some good advice. Your trading plan calls for a 2.5 to 3.0 stop loss and a profit target of 5.0. You need to execute your plan and hold until stopped out or until you hit your profit target. I don't think Mike is suggesting that you open your stops up. I think he is suggesting that you need to hold until your profit target is hit. However, I don't think that having a time limit on your trades is a bad idea if you have found that statistically, your winning percentage declines to an unacceptable level on trades held over a certain time limit.
I used to do the same thing as you describe. I would over-analyze the trade as it was in progress and constantly find a reason to exit before my profit target was reached. About 90% of the time, my profit target was reached, sometimes within one to two minutes of my exit. I started keeping a simple log on every trade which had two basic questions: 1) Did I follow my trading plan? 2) What was the cost ($$$) of not following my trading plan? Rarely did I come out ahead by exiting the trade before my profit target was hit and I was amazed at how much money I was leaving on the table by overanalyzing my trades and exiting before my target was hit. Over a short time this added up to quite a bit of money.
Do you have any idea about the winning percentage of the set-up you are using. I think it is important to get an idea of your overall winning percentage based on paper trading and looking back at historical charts to see how the set-up performs in different market environments. That can also give you a feel for what type of drawdown you could expect and what the maximum number of losers in a row you may have.
Originally posted by bronks
...I don't know why stops are given so much attention when entries, IMHO, deserve at least equal, if not higher billing. Stops require discipline, entries require judgement and clear thought. Stops I honestly don't think about. It gets there and I take it. But it's the ENTRY that is the cause and effect of the stop. For me anyways.
My conservative trading continues and I will stick with it.
+ 5.5 points / 5 RT's
bronks,
Most traders fail or go broke...I won't quote the statistics stuff...but its very high. Thus, very few are succeeding.
Further, it's safe to assume that there are some commonalities among the few that are succeeding (making a consistent profit and trading for a living).
I think one of those commonalities is the exit strategy...they put more emphasis on it to maximize profits and to minimize losses.
If your exit strategy for a particular trade requires you to execute at a certain price area...do it.
If your exit strategy is based on intuition or the "I'll do something when I get there"...
only experience successful traders with lots of years in this trading business can get by with exit strategies (occassionaly) based on intuition.
Note: I have never met a new trader to the Eminis trade successfully for a lving via intuition. Never. Those few new traders that do succeed...are rule based from start to finish.
Simply, if successful consistent traders put a lot of emphasis on exits while those that fail don't...
I would rather have a well planned exit strategy to be safe than sorry.
By the way, congrats on the points today because I watch some very good traders today barely get a few points or worst today.
NihabaAshi
If your exit strategy is based on intuition or the "I'll do something when I get there"...
only experience successful traders with lots of years in this trading business can get by with exit strategies (occassionaly) based on intuition.
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NihabaAshi,
I haven't met one so far that lasted... and I think I know some of the best traders around NYC.
Gut based exit strategies is on my high list for reasons why so many people fail. I think most beginners have this mentality that.. " i'll just wory about the entry because if its good then I am in the green right away.. and.. you cant go broke taking a profit .. or i'll take whatever I can get " .. foolish!
The pro will think.. Ok I am in the trade.. I have my plan which i know works.. lets just follow it.. whatever happens so be it.. let the market do its thing.. I know in the long run I will make $.
-----Woody, I couldnt agree with you more!!
--MIKE
only experience successful traders with lots of years in this trading business can get by with exit strategies (occassionaly) based on intuition.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
NihabaAshi,
I haven't met one so far that lasted... and I think I know some of the best traders around NYC.
Gut based exit strategies is on my high list for reasons why so many people fail. I think most beginners have this mentality that.. " i'll just wory about the entry because if its good then I am in the green right away.. and.. you cant go broke taking a profit .. or i'll take whatever I can get " .. foolish!
The pro will think.. Ok I am in the trade.. I have my plan which i know works.. lets just follow it.. whatever happens so be it.. let the market do its thing.. I know in the long run I will make $.
-----Woody, I couldnt agree with you more!!
--MIKE
Trend Fader
In one of your post you said :
#3. Only trade a strategy you feel comfortable with- and you believe in. This means you will follow it in good times and in bad. It should match your personality and style of character. If you don't know any of the above.. than it means you are not ready to trade.
I have hard time understanding this phrase "It should match your personality and style of character. "
I read this phrase many times before still do not know how to
apply it to my trading.
Please, could you explain it with some examples or ilusrations.
Thanks in advance
Tamvik
In one of your post you said :
#3. Only trade a strategy you feel comfortable with- and you believe in. This means you will follow it in good times and in bad. It should match your personality and style of character. If you don't know any of the above.. than it means you are not ready to trade.
I have hard time understanding this phrase "It should match your personality and style of character. "
I read this phrase many times before still do not know how to
apply it to my trading.
Please, could you explain it with some examples or ilusrations.
Thanks in advance
Tamvik
Originally posted by tamvik
Trend Fader
In one of your post you said :
#3. Only trade a strategy you feel comfortable with- and you believe in. This means you will follow it in good times and in bad. It should match your personality and style of character. If you don't know any of the above.. than it means you are not ready to trade.
I have hard time understanding this phrase "It should match your personality and style of character. "
I read this phrase many times before still do not know how to
apply it to my trading.
Please, could you explain it with some examples or ilusrations.
Thanks in advance
Tamvik
Tamvik,
Good question!
Many things people do in life are a reflection of their personality. At times they do not realize that this is the case. In trading this is no different. You must find a timeframe/strategy that you are comfortable with. This is a difficult task in it of itself.
Before a trader writes his trading plan, He must evaluate himself. If he knows that he does poorly under pressure.. discretionary daytrading should not be an option. The point is.. evaluate your strengths and weakness and the outcome should be in tandem with your trading plan.
Take a friend of mine Steve. He loves math, computers and statistics. He develops a trading plan that is purely mechanical based on his strengths. It would make more sense for Steve to be a mechanical systems trader than a chart pattern trader. My friend Bob hates computers. Perhaps he would be a good tape reader or floor trader.
Ask yourself the following questions;
1. What type of risks do I like to take. Am I good under the gun or am I better making decisions when I have more time?
2. Am I more discretionary or mechanical?
3. Can I really sit in front of my PC all day watching the market day in and day out?
4. Am I the type of person that likes to be right more often than wrong.. or as long as I make $ it doesn't matter. (this refers to developing a trading plan.. that has I high win rate.. and probably a lower profit per a trade)
Your trading plan in many ways will be an extension of yourself.. If its not natural to you.. then you probably wont follow it... especially during drawdowns.
The answer I gave you is not the best one. For a better answer buy the book Trade Your Way To Financial Freedom by Van Tharp. I strongly believe its a must read for all serious traders.
-MIKE