They might have done it before. AND, they are likely to do it again. Find out if anyone else has had slippery dealings with them.
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duped!
- Thread starter RockMachine
- Start date
They might have done it before. AND, they are likely to do it again. Find out if anyone else has had slippery dealings with them.
This is exactly the type of post that fuels paranoia into trading and this garbage needs to stop.
Any strategy that has ever had a single profitable share/contract/option, etc. traded would be either running or looking for a better rate. Having many (paper) strategies is much different than having existing trades.
This is a red flag to me. If you have existing (trading profitable) strategies and you are moving from one platform to another why wouldn't you either take your programmer with you or at a minimum take the time to vet out new firms or individuals. You either have paper strategies or something else is going on.
Sounds like you found someone on the internet, paid them very little and then assumed you would be making money straight away.
#1, did you have a bill or invoice from a company or individual?
#2, why are you asking for an NDA? Why was your paperwork not sorted before hand? If you have "lots of strategies" this should be second nature correct??
I hate to sound like a jerk but it's they're or they are, not there (like over there).
Throw your ideas out the window. The point of an NDA (or signing any documents) is to establish contracts and dates & times. You want to draw a line in the sand and say "as of today I am hiring you therefore any work you do for me is mine". Going back in time and asking someone to backdate a document seems desperate to me. Asking someone to sign an NDA halfway through a project is really a show of your inexperience more than anything. It would only be forward looking unless your programmer was willing to sign going backwards which would show their inexperience. Showing that you have good intentions is being honest, representing yourself accurately (both sides) and doing your homework so that you weed out the scum.
As a business owner and someone who has been on both sides of this fence all that I can say is to do your homework and be honest. If you mis-represent yourself even in the slightest bit you can get burned just as a programmer or service provider can be held accountable per the contract. It seems that you have a gripe here but may not have the stuff to back it up. If you have a written agreement and cancelled checks there should be no issue with taking these guys to the cleaners. Sue their pants off for not delivering on a contract.
OP all I can say is that complaining on the internet isn't going to fix anything. Either sue these guys or move on. If your strategy is proven (meaning able to be audited based on shares traded in the markets) and they stole it then sue their pants off.
Sorry if this turned into a rant.
Quote from RockMachine:Look I have many strategies
Any strategy that has ever had a single profitable share/contract/option, etc. traded would be either running or looking for a better rate. Having many (paper) strategies is much different than having existing trades.
If money changed hands I'm assuming you were invoiced and there was a receipt?Quote from RockMachine:I paid this snake very little.
Quote from RockMachine:1. I hired them get me from one platform to another. They offered to do it for free, why, because they were interested in future work and possibly a P&L split. Not uncommon, why, because they have no stomach for trading.
This is a red flag to me. If you have existing (trading profitable) strategies and you are moving from one platform to another why wouldn't you either take your programmer with you or at a minimum take the time to vet out new firms or individuals. You either have paper strategies or something else is going on.
Quote from RockMachine:3. Simple, they did NOT deliver and came up with excuses as to why. So
a) I asked for a refund 3 times...they simply logged off IM...
b) I asked for an NDA 3 times ... they will not respond
Sounds like you found someone on the internet, paid them very little and then assumed you would be making money straight away.
#1, did you have a bill or invoice from a company or individual?
#2, why are you asking for an NDA? Why was your paperwork not sorted before hand? If you have "lots of strategies" this should be second nature correct??
Quote from RockMachine:Look, I know there watching this board...Hi guys! The takeaway is that there are people on ET that come bearing gifts and you should be careful. And if you are providing a product or service, be willing to refund if the service is undelivered..
I hate to sound like a jerk but it's they're or they are, not there (like over there).
Quote from RockMachine:Yes an NDA is necessary upfront, but that will not protect you. however if a client asks you before or even long after, especially if they fail to deliver, it would @ least show your intentions were good.
Throw your ideas out the window. The point of an NDA (or signing any documents) is to establish contracts and dates & times. You want to draw a line in the sand and say "as of today I am hiring you therefore any work you do for me is mine". Going back in time and asking someone to backdate a document seems desperate to me. Asking someone to sign an NDA halfway through a project is really a show of your inexperience more than anything. It would only be forward looking unless your programmer was willing to sign going backwards which would show their inexperience. Showing that you have good intentions is being honest, representing yourself accurately (both sides) and doing your homework so that you weed out the scum.
Quote from RockMachine:I do believe that there are a few ET'ers , @ least thats what they said, that are using some of the services of these 2 fellas. All I can say is be careful.
As a business owner and someone who has been on both sides of this fence all that I can say is to do your homework and be honest. If you mis-represent yourself even in the slightest bit you can get burned just as a programmer or service provider can be held accountable per the contract. It seems that you have a gripe here but may not have the stuff to back it up. If you have a written agreement and cancelled checks there should be no issue with taking these guys to the cleaners. Sue their pants off for not delivering on a contract.
OP all I can say is that complaining on the internet isn't going to fix anything. Either sue these guys or move on. If your strategy is proven (meaning able to be audited based on shares traded in the markets) and they stole it then sue their pants off.
Sorry if this turned into a rant.
You are complaining that they refused to sign an NDA in respect of information that had already been given to them by you without initially requiring an NDA.
Who goofed there, you or them?
Why would anyone impose additional obligations on themselves by signing an NDA after the fact for no additional consideration? Would you if it were the other way around and a customer was making angry noises?
It doesn't mean that they're going to steal your stuff, it just means that they see no reason to help you sue them at this point.
As to the delays, all software projects are always late. It's a fact of life, just like in construction projects. It is partly due to the fact that users tend to continually change the requirements, which are vague in the first place. It is so normal that you can't even sue for lateness unless you specified "time is to be of the essence" in the contract ahead of time.
I would not worry too much about it in any case. Just having the code for a trading system is not enough. Its value lies in large part in the knowledge only you have as to how it evolved and was back-tested and how to adapt it to changing markets etc.
They will likely assume it is worthless and curve fitted anyway and just forget about it. I am not saying that it is worthless, but that is the default assumption that everyone has about other people's systems.
Who goofed there, you or them?
Why would anyone impose additional obligations on themselves by signing an NDA after the fact for no additional consideration? Would you if it were the other way around and a customer was making angry noises?
It doesn't mean that they're going to steal your stuff, it just means that they see no reason to help you sue them at this point.
As to the delays, all software projects are always late. It's a fact of life, just like in construction projects. It is partly due to the fact that users tend to continually change the requirements, which are vague in the first place. It is so normal that you can't even sue for lateness unless you specified "time is to be of the essence" in the contract ahead of time.
I would not worry too much about it in any case. Just having the code for a trading system is not enough. Its value lies in large part in the knowledge only you have as to how it evolved and was back-tested and how to adapt it to changing markets etc.
They will likely assume it is worthless and curve fitted anyway and just forget about it. I am not saying that it is worthless, but that is the default assumption that everyone has about other people's systems.
...all I get from your post is that YOU have a gripe. I am not sure whether construing a lot of very slippery arguments will do your company any good whatever true intentions you have. Winston, again I do not try to pick a fight with you but you are making a lot of baseless assertions here just in order to discredit the OP. I think the OP acted stupid in the way he described it but that itself does not warrant your shot in the center of his forehead. If you truly believe someone can make up such story then you have a whole lot of other issues to deal with than just trying to fix a broken reputation in this industry.
I can only second that whatever is out there, whether it is strategies that look good on paper and have never traded, whether half-finished strategies, strategy engines, order book algos, yes even something as simple as a vwap algo is in danger of being preyed on and stolen. Please tell us why some firms organize "automated trading competitions" where in their book the only way to verify results is to have all strategies run on their servers. They pay out 80k or so to the top ten performing algos. Please do not tell us you believe this is general advertising to have your name out there.
OP can learn a lot from this experience, but my point is, either believe the story and add value, or just ignore. To basically tell someone is a liar based on, well, actually on nothing, just because you do not like the spin of it or because it warns others to easily fork out consulting work to you or host on your servers or whatever business you are engaged in sounds much more selfish than the OP making up stories.
P.S.: rant, rant, rant ....."sorry it turned into a rant"??????
I can only second that whatever is out there, whether it is strategies that look good on paper and have never traded, whether half-finished strategies, strategy engines, order book algos, yes even something as simple as a vwap algo is in danger of being preyed on and stolen. Please tell us why some firms organize "automated trading competitions" where in their book the only way to verify results is to have all strategies run on their servers. They pay out 80k or so to the top ten performing algos. Please do not tell us you believe this is general advertising to have your name out there.
OP can learn a lot from this experience, but my point is, either believe the story and add value, or just ignore. To basically tell someone is a liar based on, well, actually on nothing, just because you do not like the spin of it or because it warns others to easily fork out consulting work to you or host on your servers or whatever business you are engaged in sounds much more selfish than the OP making up stories.
P.S.: rant, rant, rant ....."sorry it turned into a rant"??????
Quote from WinstonTJ:
This is exactly the type of post that fuels paranoia into trading and this garbage needs to stop.
Any strategy that has ever had a single profitable share/contract/option, etc. traded would be either running or looking for a better rate. Having many (paper) strategies is much different than having existing trades.
If money changed hands I'm assuming you were invoiced and there was a receipt?
This is a red flag to me. If you have existing (trading profitable) strategies and you are moving from one platform to another why wouldn't you either take your programmer with you or at a minimum take the time to vet out new firms or individuals. You either have paper strategies or something else is going on.
Sounds like you found someone on the internet, paid them very little and then assumed you would be making money straight away.
#1, did you have a bill or invoice from a company or individual?
#2, why are you asking for an NDA? Why was your paperwork not sorted before hand? If you have "lots of strategies" this should be second nature correct??
I hate to sound like a jerk but it's they're or they are, not there (like over there).
Throw your ideas out the window. The point of an NDA (or signing any documents) is to establish contracts and dates & times. You want to draw a line in the sand and say "as of today I am hiring you therefore any work you do for me is mine". Going back in time and asking someone to backdate a document seems desperate to me. Asking someone to sign an NDA halfway through a project is really a show of your inexperience more than anything. It would only be forward looking unless your programmer was willing to sign going backwards which would show their inexperience. Showing that you have good intentions is being honest, representing yourself accurately (both sides) and doing your homework so that you weed out the scum.
As a business owner and someone who has been on both sides of this fence all that I can say is to do your homework and be honest. If you mis-represent yourself even in the slightest bit you can get burned just as a programmer or service provider can be held accountable per the contract. It seems that you have a gripe here but may not have the stuff to back it up. If you have a written agreement and cancelled checks there should be no issue with taking these guys to the cleaners. Sue their pants off for not delivering on a contract.
OP all I can say is that complaining on the internet isn't going to fix anything. Either sue these guys or move on. If your strategy is proven (meaning able to be audited based on shares traded in the markets) and they stole it then sue their pants off.
Sorry if this turned into a rant.
What is an NDA worth really? Maybe we should have documents stating that a person is not a lying psychopath and have people sign them. A lying psychopath will sign an NDA and trade your intellectual property under the table to another lying psychopath who will say he invented it himself..
my point exactly. Nothing protects from IP theft other than keeping your IP for yourself. Some try to convince you, while looking you straight into the eyes, that such IP theft does not exist, lol. There are ways to safeguard against outright theft as discussed before, such as splitting up projects, but handing out stuff to others is there for the pickings. Period. Anyone who convince you otherwise is a fool or a liar.
Quote from Eight:
What is an NDA worth really? Maybe we should have documents stating that a person is not a lying psychopath and have people sign them. A lying psychopath will sign an NDA and trade your intellectual property under the table to another lying psychopath who will say he invented it himself..
So it seems that I am dealing with a sociopath, since the party I paid in person has decided to post to this board.. http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html Hey sociopath, since your brazen enough to come here, let's discuss our dealings here on ET... You know you want to, it makes you feel powerful...fess up right here. Cm on sociopath me and you.....3pm est. Here, I'll trace back in 24hrs. And we can begin.
Quote from RockMachine:
So it seems that I am dealing with a sociopath, since the party I paid in person has decided to post to this board.. http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html Hey sociopath, since your brazen enough to come here, let's discuss our dealings here on ET... You know you want to, it makes you feel powerful...fess up right here. Cm on sociopath me and you.....3pm est. Here, I'll trace back in 24hrs. And we can begin.
Hey Rock, apart from the NDA, when you say these guys didn't deliver, can you be more specific? Just curious how difficult the task was that you were asking them to do.
And a word of advice, NEVER EVER do business with anyone you have not met in person. I know this message board makes it convenient for people to connect from all over the world, but con men thrive on here. It's very fertile ground. You need to look a man in the eye before you do business with him. And get everything in writing. People hide on these message boards for all sorts of reasons. If you live in some far out of the way place, make the investment to travel to see them. It's worth the cost.
And you really should provide their names here. You are only allowing them to con more people.
Quote from RockMachine:
Well, this is the problem. Nobody talks like this to someone in person, I know you wouldn't if were in front of you.
I will tell you to your face.
Let's meet in Paris. Get me a first-class ticket ASAP!!!!
Also I need spending money while there, and a good hotel room.
People always wonder why 90% lose, they simply lose!!!!
This is reason #209387329084738924732
Note: When you call someone a "failed trader" I think in court you better be able to prove it or he will counter-sue for Libel!!!!
So what are these people's NAMES!!!!!
lol