Dr. Van Tharp Questions

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prospective_25

I am currently working on my trading plan/business plan and like a lot of what Van Tharp , I guess more some of his psychological aspects and a bit of his position-sizing techniques, but I'll have to admit that I haven't developed my risk management system completely yet.(I am definitely not trading right now) Anyways, I occasionally like to look at the richdad.com message boards as they Van Tharp has collaborated with the creator of the Rich Dad series of products(RObert Kiyosaki) Anyways I take the following from a post on those boards:

"I bought "Trading Your Way to Financial Freedom" which every serious stock investor/trader should read. That made me buy his Peak Performance course (which most everyone should pass on). He does have a lot of interesting points, but one HUGE credibility problem. You see there was a person running a hedge fund returning "40%", but he would not allow anyone to audit his records. This person David something or other owed his success to Van's "Psychological help" needless to say during Tharps seminars Tharp would pitch this guys fund saying this David guy would make exceptions and let people give him money to invest. (Illegal, because most of the people were not accredited investors- reference RK's books for this definition) Needless to say Van was a shill for this guy and the hedge fund was a gigantic ponzi scheme thus the credibility gap. My point is Tharp, RK or anyone for that matter does not have all the answers. They only know what works for them and they keep doing it. They got to that point via a lot of trial and error. My advise is read the Tharp book, write a business plan about how you are going to conduct your trading as a business and keep a trading journal. "

I had not heard of this "HUGE credibility problem" before I saw it there and I was wondering if anyone could elaborate...if someone can clear this up for me, please do so. I am not sure how confident I can be using some of the aspects of his work I plan to unless I know more about this...

THANKS

pro25

luspace @ hotmail
 
Originally posted by prospective_25
I am currently working on my trading plan/business plan and like a lot of what Van Tharp , I guess more some of his psychological aspects and a bit of his position-sizing techniques, but I'll have to admit that I haven't developed my risk management system completely yet.(I am definitely not trading right now) Anyways, I occasionally like to look at the richdad.com message boards as they Van Tharp has collaborated with the creator of the Rich Dad series of products(RObert Kiyosaki) Anyways I take the following from a post on those boards:

"I bought "Trading Your Way to Financial Freedom" which every serious stock investor/trader should read. That made me buy his Peak Performance course (which most everyone should pass on). He does have a lot of interesting points, but one HUGE credibility problem. You see there was a person running a hedge fund returning "40%", but he would not allow anyone to audit his records. This person David something or other owed his success to Van's "Psychological help" needless to say during Tharps seminars Tharp would pitch this guys fund saying this David guy would make exceptions and let people give him money to invest. (Illegal, because most of the people were not accredited investors- reference RK's books for this definition) Needless to say Van was a shill for this guy and the hedge fund was a gigantic ponzi scheme thus the credibility gap. My point is Tharp, RK or anyone for that matter does not have all the answers. They only know what works for them and they keep doing it. They got to that point via a lot of trial and error. My advise is read the Tharp book, write a business plan about how you are going to conduct your trading as a business and keep a trading journal. "

I had not heard of this "HUGE credibility problem" before I saw it there and I was wondering if anyone could elaborate...if someone can clear this up for me, please do so. I am not sure how confident I can be using some of the aspects of his work I plan to unless I know more about this...

THANKS

pro25

luspace @ hotmail
More...
Interesting...


nitro
 
he can't talk about Maricopa due to being in a lawsuit with past investors. Civil suits have very different rules than criminal suits.

You are guilty until proven innocent. He doesn't want to comment on anything anymore as he was already sued and settled.


but I can comment as I have nothing to do....

I'm not named in the lawsuit. In fact I am one of the investors in the Maricopa scandal

his son....

One of my companies had invested money with the fund
if my father had known what was going on do you think I would have been in the fund?


My father lost about 60% of his networth from that scandal. He didn't follow his own advice about position sizing as a ton of his nest egg was with Maricopa.

All of IITM's (my father's company) employee retirement accounts were with Maricopa.

than......a lot of his clients (a lot were good friends) turned on him, blamed him for everything.



He was heavily backstabbed by a crook. He trusted someone, worked heavily with him........yet had no idea what was really going on.

One of his original business models was to train someone, back them with his own capital after they were doing well and help them start a fund. He did this a few different times but NOBODY ever had returns like Maricopa.....(which is now understandable).

Since this scandal.......his business model has severly changed.

He now does not recommend anyone, does not back traders and that quote from "Market Wizards" saying I don't trade I invest in my students is no longer valid.

This is what drove him into trading on his own.



Dave Mobley is now spending life in prison

Robert

also to comment on the course
the key is to NOT SKIP ANY EXERCISES. The ones you skip are what you need to work on the most.
 
Interesting and sad :(

For what its worth Rob I gained a great deal from your fathers work and think he is top notch ---> regardless of any scandals...

PEACE and good trading,
Commisso
 
Thanks Robert, I must let you know that I am a Long time lurker and very occasional poster, but have always respected your posts. I am developing a trading plan and business plan despite not having a lot of capital bc I moved to be involved with a firm and the firm shut down the proprietary program just as I was ready to take the 7...so I incurred the expenses of moving, series 7 materials, etc, for MONTHS without pay and then they leave me in the cold...the office manager was great but they simply couldn't do anything...bc the higher-ups...big names whose firm appears to have been bought out recently just couldn't continue with the model they had) I hoping to firm-shop(my main concern being comfortable that the people I am trading with and the office personnel are dedicated to not a churning business model, but a supporting-profitable-traders one!!!) in January which will likely mean relocating again and more expenses...(not to mention I haven't been out of college much more than a year!) Anyways I just wanted to thank you for your quick response. I really like your fathers Peak Performance program and his books and I glad to hear that your dad was deceived rather than a co-conspirator (which I thought was the likely scenario)...

Again.. I appreciate it and will look around a bit more just out of curiosity, but your post+credibility is enough for me to maintain confidence in the psychological and positionsizing aspects I hope to use

pro_25
 
Originally posted by prospective_25
Thanks Robert, I must let you know that I am a Long time lurker and very occasional poster, but have always respected your posts. I am developing a trading plan and business plan despite not having a lot of capital bc I moved to be involved with a firm and the firm shut down the proprietary program just as I was ready to take the 7...so I incurred the expenses of moving, series 7 materials, etc, for MONTHS without pay and then they leave me in the cold...the office manager was great but they simply couldn't do anything...bc the higher-ups...big names whose firm appears to have been bought out recently just couldn't continue with the model they had) I hoping to firm-shop(my main concern being comfortable that the people I am trading with and the office personnel are dedicated to not a churning business model, but a supporting-profitable-traders one!!!) in January which will likely mean relocating again and more expenses...(not to mention I haven't been out of college much more than a year!) Anyways I just wanted to thank you for your quick response. I really like your fathers Peak Performance program and his books and I glad to hear that your dad was deceived rather than a co-conspirator (which I thought was the likely scenario)...

Again.. I appreciate it and will look around a bit more just out of curiosity, but your post+credibility is enough for me to maintain confidence in the psychological and positionsizing aspects I hope to use

pro_25
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my preference is for my father to talk about what had happened.

It's just too much for him to handle though,

David Mobley was supposed to be his model client running this multi million dollar fund doing incredible returns. David worked with my father for countless hours on his on psychological things he had going. This brings a person very close to you when you get these deep thoughts brought out.

Somehow the biggest secret never came out. That takes a really twisted mind to go that deep inside yourself and actually be able to live with yourself doing that kind of damage.

So you can imagine how it felt to be stabbed by your best friend. Than on top of it, the guilt my father had felt for introducing a large % of investors to the fund.

Than on top of that quite a few friends feel betrayed and sue him.

Not an easy thing to go through. I can talk about it as I don't have any feelings involved.

__________________________________________________
As you are well aware of, my father is now answering questions publicly regarding his work on that message board. Feel free to ask away.



Also to me one thing will always get my respect, results.
I've found there are 3 types of people I can easily train to trade like I do and get the same results.

Someone completely new , OPEN MINDED and willing to listen

Somebody who has a lot of experience but at the same time is humble to realize he doesn't know everything and if I'm out performing him -------maybe I know something he doesn't which can help him

Than there is one other type of person.........someone who has been working with my father. Done some of his seminars /courses and has an open mind.
Of the latter these have been some of the more pleasant, easiest people to work with. There are 3 in the office I trade in now. If you want to ask about what my father has done.

Don't listen to me as I could be biased due to my relationship with him. Ask them. I'd be happy to get u in touch with them

___________________________________________________
Now on your situation can definitely understand where you are coming from. First thing is to look at what you want to do as a long term goal. I've said this before. Everyone over estimates what they can do in a year and heavily under estimates what they can do in a decade or 2 decades.

Have a huge feeling I know what firm you are talking about but its better to not say any names.

First look on the bright side......you have taken steps to move forward already. You have studied for the 7 , set some goals for yourself, and are willing to ask questions when you have doubts about something.

Will any of this really matter what has happened with you if a year or 2 from now you are living off your trading account and doing well? If you can learn from the experience than you've gained something.

I'll add some more tomorrow, I'm rambling right now as I'm dead tired and need to get up soon

Robert Tharp
 
rtharp,

Out of the products IITM offers, I have read "Trade your way...," and "DayTrade your way to Financial Freedom." In order, which product of your fathers do you recommend?

thanks,
Andy
 
I purchased the Peak Performance Course a few years back. At the time I didn't feel like putting the necessary effort inorder to get the proper results.

It seems like it's worth the money. I'm sure that I would benefit from it. So, I am probably going to complete the course, finally!!

Does anyone have any input?
 
I am going to go slightly off topic but it's interesting how people read books. I am a former Evilyn Wood Speed Reader, now a conventional speed reader(I don't use that finger tracking technique). I've done a lot of thinking about how I read books so I'd like to give some comments.

One thing is when people read, we seem to be judgemental. We read through something and we seem to only grasp what we are pleased to. In another words, when you read you grasp what you have questioned in mind or what you know. Regardless of the quality of the text, if we don't seek it we won't grasp it. This does occur to me a lot too and that makes me read Market Wizard and other books over and over again.

Another, about what we question. This is objective reading and we only grasp what we question leaving the other details away, most introductory speed reading is done this way by questioning all the time (Ex. in a novel: what will happen next, how will Character XXX and Character YYY do this... etc etc.) The other details are in your brain but it can't be retrieved until you have a question to retrieve it.

Lots of people say some books are worthless or doesn't live up to standard(different from people and the time when the person is reading it). Like Dr. Van Tharp's Peak Performance, Lewis J. Borsellino's Day Trader, WDGann's books, or etc. etc.. Yes, some of them are useless though, take those Beginner's Guide to Trading Stocks books... they are definitely useless, at least for me, but not for people who have no idea about stocks.

I've got a friend who's got a Peak Performance course and I borrowed it(I'm cheap and I like myself for it) and went through all the exercise step-by-step knowing about how I read stuff. While going through these excercises, I had doubts about what I was doing. Still, for some I was able to grasp the significance while and after the excercise, some I grasped while working(during trading and homeworks) after taking the exercise. It helped me a lot looking back at the course.

This has a lot to do with trading too. Remember how Van Tharp explains about biases in Financial Freedom? I think it's the same. We are biased when we read too. So I try to keep an open mind and try to be more than willing to change what I percieve and what I believe in. It helped me a lot. I have a sense of training myself as a trader even if I'm reading for pleasure and I love myself for that.

So regardless of his crudentials with the lawsuit and all I see quality in Van Tharp's book. Same goes with Niederhoffer, Larry William, Russell Sands, and others.
 
Originally posted by rtharp


David Mobley was supposed to be his model client running this multi million dollar fund doing incredible returns. David worked with my father for countless hours on his on psychological things he had going. This brings a person very close to you when you get these deep thoughts brought out.
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The most difficult thing in business IMHO is finding smart flexible people with good moral character. Over the years you can become much better at evaluating people but even with a lot of experience you can still be fooled.....

I have been lucky with my people but I know lots of folks that have been burned over the years: your father is not alone.
 
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