Don't want to sidetrack the ISLD thread

[Lobster]

but I feel we are starting to get somewhere here. The mere fact that we can have an open discussion illustrates that we DO live in a country that values freedom of speech as well as freedom of opinion and where someone who happens to view things from a different angle is not always silenced by the 99% of the population who will inevitably form a mindless crowd who blindly follows government propaganda.

Originally posted by ddefina
Lobster, I think the U.S. is a beacon of peace to the free world. How many countries step up and do the right thing like we've done over time? How much land have we taken in the last 200+ years as a nation without paying for it? I know the indians were crowded onto reservations (yeah, yeah), but at least they can still make cool fireworks, and operate Casino's! Hawaii was a good purchase and we bought Alaska from the Soviets. I thought Canada would've been nice in our Portfolio, but they haven't come up with a firm purchase price yet. We are waiting for the Canadian dollar to drop another 20% so we can do a hostile takeover.

People are just jealous of us because we can buy them or destroy them. The fact that we took the smartest path in the evolution of our country doesn't make us bad.

And Israel is blessed for a reason. Read about what the Arab states have been trying to do to them since they formed their country. Pretty interesting.

ddefina, very well done! I honestly cannot determine whether or not your post was ironic. You should seriously consider becoming a writer (if you are not yet one). Anyway, in my opinion you have been more successful in achieving what I intended to achieve with my original post: To point out that real life is never "black and white", there is no "right" or "wrong" thing, and even the greatest holocaust in the history of mankind can beget something positive (creation of the USA).

Also, I would like to clarify that I do not hate the United States. I also realize that there is nothing anyone can do to change the laws of nature. It has always been and will always be survival of the fittest (or more accurately reproduction of the fittest).

Personally, I am opposed to war, but I am not saying someone who favors war is necessarily wrong. I might even go to war under certain circumstances, just like people who prefer war will certainly sometimes choose to stay at peace. We always have to weigh the benefits against the drawbacks of any action we take.

What I DO, however, detest is the idiocy of the crowd who reiterate what they hear on TV: "We have to go to war against Iraq, because they have weapons of mass destruction, because of freedom and democracy, and because it's the right thing to do." The only grain of truth in that statement is that we will go to war because of democracy. Namely, the president wants to be democratically re-elected. The polls are one of the reasons he feels he needs a war. The other reasons are of course oil, stimulus to the war industry, and disposal of outdated weapons.

These are the reasons why I believe what President Bush gives us as justification for the war on Iraq are total hypocrisy:

1. If we do not want weapons of mass destruction to exist, we should start destroying our own before we go after the few tiny ones Saddam possibly has.

2. If we do not want illegal weapons of mass destruction to exist, but only want them in countries that are officially allowed to have them (as stupid as this might be) we should try to get Israel to give up its huge stack before we go after the few tiny ones Saddam might have.

3. If we want to free the Iraqi population of the cruel despot Saddam is depicted to be, from the oppression Bush was talking about, we should take out Saddam himself. Instead, just like last time, we will kill a few hundred thousand Iraqi soldiers and civilians (Imagine 100 world trade center sized towers full of people, that's the number we killed in our last invasion of Iraq, but I guess they don't count. Our ideals are not about "The People" anymore, it's now about "The US Citizens"). Why is Saddam still oppressing his people? And why will he still be after this upcoming war? Think about it!

This country has become the greatest in the world, because we have tried not only to tolerate, but to value different cultures and also different opinions. The second we start the bs the other nations are doing, the second we start viewing different nations, different cultures, and different thinking as "hostile", "treacherous", "inferior", "the wrong way", we give up the one thing that makes us the land of the free and the home of the brave.

 

[ddefina]

You're too levelheaded Lobster. I was hoping to argue with a drooling Arab Sympathizer. I agree with you that this situation with the war on terrorism is kind of a joke. We go after the countries we can handle, like Afghanistan, but leave China alone even though they supply many of the weapons to the "Axis of Evil", and we leave Saudi Arabia alone because they have oil and are our supposed friends.

I do support doing the right thing in the world though, even though America is being hypocritical about it, they are still moving in the right direction IMO. Iraq is a known aggressor (Kuwait) and is most likely developing weapons of mass destruction. In five years they will probably have the missile technology to hit the US with nuclear warheads, and then we'll be in a weak position to do anything. So I think given the rap sheet on Saddam, he needs to be removed from power. Not because its right to invade a sovereign country, but because we have someone who hates America (because of Desert Storm for one), and will probably try to kill millions of Americans before he leaves this earth. So from a realistic point of view, do you go in and topple him now, or wait for him to give Israel or us a major body blow?

I apologize for the Jews comment, but it’s ironic that they are blamed for everything throughout history, directly or indirectly.

 

[resinate]

Originally posted by ddefina


No offense taken. So after WWII we had Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm, Afghanistan (Operation Enduring Freedom).

Korea was to protect South Korea from the invading Communist North.

Vietnam was to protect South Vietnam from the invading Communist North.

Desert Storm was to protect Kuwait from Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein.

Afghanistan was to destroy the Al Queda network (who attacked America) which was supported by the Taliban regime.

Do you find a problem with any of these wars. Are you a communist sympathizer?

I hope you don't live in America, and reap her bounty while defaming her name.

ddefina,

In terms of what you list, I think its hard to defend the Vietnam as well as the 1st gulf war (one oil soaked dictatorship fighting with another over drilling rights). However, I was more referring to the 40 years of proxy wars fought on every continent and countless coups, covert actions and insurgencies in Latin America. Plus, on the unjust side is 10 years of post gulf-war bombing and starvation of Iraq and an admission by Carter's NSC advisor Brzenski (sp?) who proudly claims to have provoked the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan by beginning to arm the same fundamentalist maniacs who we fight now in our own war on terror.

I agree with you that US targets on this war do not make sense. Not that I support war with Iran, but even according to the US state department, they are much more involved in sponsoring terror than Iraq as is Suadi Arabia.

P.S. one could argue that America reaps all of our bounty to pay for these endless wars. How did the Vietnam war, countless wars in Latin America, and US creation of Afghan fundamentalism increase your bounty? Every empire in the history of the world eventually goes broke.

 

[Lobster]

The Jews really are a very special people. You are right, it cannot be coincidence that they are always persecuted, yet they always prevail. How do you explain that if you don't believe in God...

I am far from being an Arab-lover or Arab-hater, actually I never quite understood the concept of ethnic or national discrimination. I am certain there are lots of loving, giving, benevolent Arabs, Americans, Jews, Chinese, etc., just like there are most likely lots of villains in all those groups.

From what I have heard (a little bit from someone who knew someone who knew an Iraqi family, and a lot in the media) I am inclined to believe Saddam is evil and responsible for a lot of suffering. And the sad part is the US will probably do the same thing we did last time: Cripple the Iraqis militarily and economically, while leaving Saddam in charge to continue his (alleged) terror regime.

I do love America and what it stands for, and that is why I hate to see Americans glorifying what is the last resort and the worst possible way to solve a situation short of being killed.

If we have to go to war and kill thousands in order to protect ourselves, then we have failed miserably and should apologize for deeming such cruel and savage measures necessary, not trying to cast ourselves in a good light chanting "freedom, democracy, and fight against weapons of mass destruction" as if we were doing the world a favor.