Does Israel have right to exist in current form?
- Thread starter TorontoTrader2
- Start date
Quote from dddooo:
Zinoboys (and girls) kicked, not kissed your terrorist ass... Quite a number of times actually.
Yep wael, these zinogirls kicked your lazy stupid wahhabist ass.
They should so do a Playboy spread. DIbs on 3rd from the left.
Can we get pics of Israeli and palestinian women and compare. I think even wael would concede that one.
Perhaps um, the product of German intervention?
The Girls of the IDF... Don't you want to be conscripted? <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5BcMof_kwNk&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5BcMof_kwNk&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
Oh dear, these extremist religious nuts run the country??
Are you ready to send your kids to die for their "god"?
Apparently, a man of god is someone who preaches genocide.
Time to adjust that ole' moral compass.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Praying for Armageddon
We want you to recognize that Iran is a clear and present danger to the United States of America and Israel. And... that it's time for our country to consider a military pre-emptive strike against Iran if they will not yield to diplomacy," says Pastor John Hagee, a popular television preacher and head of Christians United for Israel (CUFI), an organization that he founded in February 2006.
That was said, of all places, on the steps of the Capitol during a Christian Zionist summit in July 2007. Among some 4,500 listeners, there were prominent representatives of the U.S. ruling elite: on the Republican side, presidential candidate John McCain, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, and former Republican House majority leader Tom DeLay; among the Democrats, Senator Joseph Lieberman was in attendance. Israel was represented at the rally by former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
"When 50 million American evangelicals unite with 5 million American Jews, you know it is a match made in heaven," the preacher said. In response, Sen. Lieberman said of the preacher: "I would describe Pastor Hagee with the words the Torah uses to describe Moses: he is an âEesh Elo Kim,' a man of God because those words fit him; and, like Moses he has become the leader of a mighty multitude in pursuit of and defense of Israel."
Who are the "Christian Zionists"? They are a variety of Protestant "fundamentalists" who interpret current events literally as prophesies fulfilled, in accordance with Biblical prophecy, and interpret the prophetic texts as describing inevitable future events. They prefer the most literal interpretation, as proposed back in the 19th century by Briton John Darby, who said there would be no Second Coming of Christ until the Jews returned to the Holy Land.
When Israel was "recreated" in Palestine in 1948, the Darby followers came to the conclusion that that had happened exactly "according to the Scripture." Literalists like Hagee have since continued to replace historiography with theology. From these theological "heights," they imagine themselves to be political strategists and rulers of destinies in the world: after all, "in accordance with the Scripture," Abraham's posterity should possess the entire Holy Land - from Mesopotamia to Turkey to Egypt.
Ironically, the literalists do not bother to ask whether the Israelis need such an Israel in the first place. They - i.e.: Christians waiting for the Second Coming of Christ in accordance with the Apocalypse prophesies - need a great and indivisible Israel. Jesus returns at the end of the seven years (Tribulation) to destroy The Antichrist (The Beast) and his armies at the Battle of Armageddon, outside of Jerusalem. It is for this battle that the pastor - dubbed "Texas Taliban" by some commentators - is urging the U.S. to prepare.
Needless to say, Good is represented by Israel and the U.S., and Evil, by all of Israel's enemies - i.e., Pales_tinians, Arabs, Muslims, and especially Shiite Iran. "The head of the beast of radical Islam in the Middle East is Iran and its fanatical president, Ahmadinejad," Hagee intoned.
"Ahmadinejad believes if he starts a world war, the Islamic messiah will mysteriously appear and produce a global Islamic theocratic dictatorship. It's 1938 all over again. Iran is Germany. Ahmadinejad is Hitler and Ahmadinejad, just like Hitler, is talking about killing the Jews."
According to the pastor, the principal force of Evil will be Russia, a sponsor of Muslim terrorists and supplier of nuclear weapons to Iran. It makes no difference to the preacher that the Soviet Union was Hitler's main opponent and was also the first state to recognize Israel, or that many Israelis come from Russia or that modern Russia itself is fighting against Muslim extremists ("Russia is all over the Middle East in an antagonistic position against the United States... Iran's nuclear weapons have been produced with Russian scientists. The Islamic Arabs are using the Roadmap to Peace to accumulate as much of Israel's territory they can get.")
Whatever the case, the battle will end in a decisive victory for the forces of Good, and the theocratic Jewish state with be restored with the center in Jerusalem, to which all other kings and tsars will go cap in hand. Alas, after such a triumph, the pastor runs into problems: what about the Jews who are waiting for their Messiah, not Jesus Christ? According to the pastor, Jews have not as yet converted to Christianity simply because they have not seen Jesus Christ. But during His Second Coming to Jerusalem, they will finally be able to see Him with their own eyes, and they will bow to him.
"Thank you for the honor," said Rabbi Michael Lerner, who was invited by TV host Bill Moyers to his show to discuss the activity of Christian Zionists. "First, you want to get the Jewish people involved in Arma_geddon," he said, "and then you confront the winners with a no-win choice: convert to our faith or you'll burn in hell." From the rabbi's perspective (and Rabbi Lerner is also editor of Tikkun, a Jewish journal of politics, culture and spirituality), Chris_tian Zionists such as Hagee do a great disservice to Israel and all Jews.
At this point it turns out that a "holy alliance" between 50 million American Christians and 5 million American Jews is more of a dream than reality. In spite of the fact that there are quite a few Jews among the neo-cons who started the war in Iraq, the majority of American Jews vote against Bush.
Even in Israel itself, it is unlikely that many people would fall for the "holy alliance." After all, Hagee is even opposed to the Road Map for Peace and a two-state concept, favors the continued colonization of the West Bank, and is against any concessions being given to the Palestinians.
There are just as many problems with the 50 million Americans. Presumably to counterbalance the dispute between the rabbi and the pastor, Moyers invited Dr. Timothy P. Weber, another evangelist, on the show. Unlike Hagee, Dr. Weber is a real historian, the author of "On the Road to Armageddon: How Evan_gelicals Became Israel's Best Friend."
Although Dr. Weber considers himself to be an evangelist, he is far from being a Zionist. According to Dr. Weber, Christian Zionists are not Christians in the first place, nor do they represent the majority of Christian evangelists. They believe in the Second Coming of Christ, but do not intend to play up to Israel. They simply follow Christ's teachings, campaigning for peace and justice.
Dr. Weber pointed out that during the Cold War era, literalists portrayed the Soviet Union as northern Gog in confrontation with American Magog. At that time, Iran was not even a blip on the biblical preachers' radar screen, but now they are trying to fit Iranian President Ahmadinejad's policy into a biblical scenario.
There is no reason to believe that Christian Zionists represent the majority of American Christians, but Hagee, without any doubt, represents a belligerent trend in U.S. policy, which has yet to run out of steam. According to recent Time and CNN polls, one-third of Americans believed that after 9/11, the end of the world was near at hand, while 36 percent take biblical prophesies literally.
Apart from religious fanatics like Hagee, there are also other advocates of a "holy alliance" in the United States. For example, Daniel Pipes, the son of the well known Russia expert Richard Pipes, who is a specialist on the Middle East and a neo-con, said: "Other than the Israel Defense Forces, America's Christian Zionists may be the Jewish state's ultimate strategic asset."
On the other hand, such intellectuals as Rabbi Lerner and Dr. Weber are very well aware that the source of America's good will with respect to Israel is the shared origin of Christian biblical culture. Therefore, while challenging the Christian Zionists' right to be called Christians, they do not condemn evangelicals in general. They acknowledge that Islam as one of the three great religions that originated from ancient Judaic monotheism. They are concerned that the influence of fundamentalists and fanatics in all three religions distorts their spiritual foundations.
When Moyers referred to Ahma_dinejad's bellicose remarks about Israel and recalled that some Muslims believe in the return of the Mahdi,
a kind of messianic figure who will turn the world Islamic, Rabbi Lerner condemned all fanatics and said: "The alternative is to create a different world view. And this is the problem that the United States and those of us who are liberals or progressives in the United States and in the Western world have not been able to articulate an alternative world view. This is partly because we have become so secular and no longer understand that there is some spiritual foundation to the yearnings of people all over the world for something other than global capitalism, for something other than the globalization of selfishness."
Well said. But while sensible people are creating an alternative world view, it would probably be a good idea to recall that the U.S. Constitution has clearly separated religion from government. Of course, Pastor Hagee is free to say whatever he likes in his parish. But when he does that on the steps of the Capitol with the obvious goal of influencing U.S. policy, he violates not only the law, but the very spirit of the American Constitution.
Are you ready to send your kids to die for their "god"?
Apparently, a man of god is someone who preaches genocide.
Time to adjust that ole' moral compass.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Praying for Armageddon
We want you to recognize that Iran is a clear and present danger to the United States of America and Israel. And... that it's time for our country to consider a military pre-emptive strike against Iran if they will not yield to diplomacy," says Pastor John Hagee, a popular television preacher and head of Christians United for Israel (CUFI), an organization that he founded in February 2006.
That was said, of all places, on the steps of the Capitol during a Christian Zionist summit in July 2007. Among some 4,500 listeners, there were prominent representatives of the U.S. ruling elite: on the Republican side, presidential candidate John McCain, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, and former Republican House majority leader Tom DeLay; among the Democrats, Senator Joseph Lieberman was in attendance. Israel was represented at the rally by former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
"When 50 million American evangelicals unite with 5 million American Jews, you know it is a match made in heaven," the preacher said. In response, Sen. Lieberman said of the preacher: "I would describe Pastor Hagee with the words the Torah uses to describe Moses: he is an âEesh Elo Kim,' a man of God because those words fit him; and, like Moses he has become the leader of a mighty multitude in pursuit of and defense of Israel."
Who are the "Christian Zionists"? They are a variety of Protestant "fundamentalists" who interpret current events literally as prophesies fulfilled, in accordance with Biblical prophecy, and interpret the prophetic texts as describing inevitable future events. They prefer the most literal interpretation, as proposed back in the 19th century by Briton John Darby, who said there would be no Second Coming of Christ until the Jews returned to the Holy Land.
When Israel was "recreated" in Palestine in 1948, the Darby followers came to the conclusion that that had happened exactly "according to the Scripture." Literalists like Hagee have since continued to replace historiography with theology. From these theological "heights," they imagine themselves to be political strategists and rulers of destinies in the world: after all, "in accordance with the Scripture," Abraham's posterity should possess the entire Holy Land - from Mesopotamia to Turkey to Egypt.
Ironically, the literalists do not bother to ask whether the Israelis need such an Israel in the first place. They - i.e.: Christians waiting for the Second Coming of Christ in accordance with the Apocalypse prophesies - need a great and indivisible Israel. Jesus returns at the end of the seven years (Tribulation) to destroy The Antichrist (The Beast) and his armies at the Battle of Armageddon, outside of Jerusalem. It is for this battle that the pastor - dubbed "Texas Taliban" by some commentators - is urging the U.S. to prepare.
Needless to say, Good is represented by Israel and the U.S., and Evil, by all of Israel's enemies - i.e., Pales_tinians, Arabs, Muslims, and especially Shiite Iran. "The head of the beast of radical Islam in the Middle East is Iran and its fanatical president, Ahmadinejad," Hagee intoned.
"Ahmadinejad believes if he starts a world war, the Islamic messiah will mysteriously appear and produce a global Islamic theocratic dictatorship. It's 1938 all over again. Iran is Germany. Ahmadinejad is Hitler and Ahmadinejad, just like Hitler, is talking about killing the Jews."
According to the pastor, the principal force of Evil will be Russia, a sponsor of Muslim terrorists and supplier of nuclear weapons to Iran. It makes no difference to the preacher that the Soviet Union was Hitler's main opponent and was also the first state to recognize Israel, or that many Israelis come from Russia or that modern Russia itself is fighting against Muslim extremists ("Russia is all over the Middle East in an antagonistic position against the United States... Iran's nuclear weapons have been produced with Russian scientists. The Islamic Arabs are using the Roadmap to Peace to accumulate as much of Israel's territory they can get.")
Whatever the case, the battle will end in a decisive victory for the forces of Good, and the theocratic Jewish state with be restored with the center in Jerusalem, to which all other kings and tsars will go cap in hand. Alas, after such a triumph, the pastor runs into problems: what about the Jews who are waiting for their Messiah, not Jesus Christ? According to the pastor, Jews have not as yet converted to Christianity simply because they have not seen Jesus Christ. But during His Second Coming to Jerusalem, they will finally be able to see Him with their own eyes, and they will bow to him.
"Thank you for the honor," said Rabbi Michael Lerner, who was invited by TV host Bill Moyers to his show to discuss the activity of Christian Zionists. "First, you want to get the Jewish people involved in Arma_geddon," he said, "and then you confront the winners with a no-win choice: convert to our faith or you'll burn in hell." From the rabbi's perspective (and Rabbi Lerner is also editor of Tikkun, a Jewish journal of politics, culture and spirituality), Chris_tian Zionists such as Hagee do a great disservice to Israel and all Jews.
At this point it turns out that a "holy alliance" between 50 million American Christians and 5 million American Jews is more of a dream than reality. In spite of the fact that there are quite a few Jews among the neo-cons who started the war in Iraq, the majority of American Jews vote against Bush.
Even in Israel itself, it is unlikely that many people would fall for the "holy alliance." After all, Hagee is even opposed to the Road Map for Peace and a two-state concept, favors the continued colonization of the West Bank, and is against any concessions being given to the Palestinians.
There are just as many problems with the 50 million Americans. Presumably to counterbalance the dispute between the rabbi and the pastor, Moyers invited Dr. Timothy P. Weber, another evangelist, on the show. Unlike Hagee, Dr. Weber is a real historian, the author of "On the Road to Armageddon: How Evan_gelicals Became Israel's Best Friend."
Although Dr. Weber considers himself to be an evangelist, he is far from being a Zionist. According to Dr. Weber, Christian Zionists are not Christians in the first place, nor do they represent the majority of Christian evangelists. They believe in the Second Coming of Christ, but do not intend to play up to Israel. They simply follow Christ's teachings, campaigning for peace and justice.
Dr. Weber pointed out that during the Cold War era, literalists portrayed the Soviet Union as northern Gog in confrontation with American Magog. At that time, Iran was not even a blip on the biblical preachers' radar screen, but now they are trying to fit Iranian President Ahmadinejad's policy into a biblical scenario.
There is no reason to believe that Christian Zionists represent the majority of American Christians, but Hagee, without any doubt, represents a belligerent trend in U.S. policy, which has yet to run out of steam. According to recent Time and CNN polls, one-third of Americans believed that after 9/11, the end of the world was near at hand, while 36 percent take biblical prophesies literally.
Apart from religious fanatics like Hagee, there are also other advocates of a "holy alliance" in the United States. For example, Daniel Pipes, the son of the well known Russia expert Richard Pipes, who is a specialist on the Middle East and a neo-con, said: "Other than the Israel Defense Forces, America's Christian Zionists may be the Jewish state's ultimate strategic asset."
On the other hand, such intellectuals as Rabbi Lerner and Dr. Weber are very well aware that the source of America's good will with respect to Israel is the shared origin of Christian biblical culture. Therefore, while challenging the Christian Zionists' right to be called Christians, they do not condemn evangelicals in general. They acknowledge that Islam as one of the three great religions that originated from ancient Judaic monotheism. They are concerned that the influence of fundamentalists and fanatics in all three religions distorts their spiritual foundations.
When Moyers referred to Ahma_dinejad's bellicose remarks about Israel and recalled that some Muslims believe in the return of the Mahdi,
a kind of messianic figure who will turn the world Islamic, Rabbi Lerner condemned all fanatics and said: "The alternative is to create a different world view. And this is the problem that the United States and those of us who are liberals or progressives in the United States and in the Western world have not been able to articulate an alternative world view. This is partly because we have become so secular and no longer understand that there is some spiritual foundation to the yearnings of people all over the world for something other than global capitalism, for something other than the globalization of selfishness."
Well said. But while sensible people are creating an alternative world view, it would probably be a good idea to recall that the U.S. Constitution has clearly separated religion from government. Of course, Pastor Hagee is free to say whatever he likes in his parish. But when he does that on the steps of the Capitol with the obvious goal of influencing U.S. policy, he violates not only the law, but the very spirit of the American Constitution.
What a cowardly butcher.
-------------------------------------
Israeli minister 'in fear of arrest' cancels UK visit
By Donald Macintyre in Jerusalem
Published: 07 December 2007
A senior Israeli minister has turned down an invitation to visit Britain because of fears he could have been arrested on war crimes charges arising from the assassination of a top Hamas military commander five years ago.
The Israeli foreign ministry advised Avi Dichter, the Public Security minister, that what it described as an "extreme leftist" group was likely to file a legal complaint over the July 2002 bombing attack in Gaza on Saleh Shehadah which killed at least 13 civilians.
Mr Dichter, who had been due to speak at a seminar in King's College London, was at the time head of the domestic intelligence agency Shin Bet, which helped to plan the attack. The bombing, which was internationally criticised â including by the US â because of the civilian loss of life, was described after an internal Israeli investigation as a "mistake".
While Mr Dichter is the first minister to have cancelled a trip for such reasons, the official advice to him followed other cases in which senior generals have refrained from visiting Britain because of similar fears of private legal actions leading to the issue of an arrest warrant.
Asked about the Shehadah bombing in an interview with The Independent in 2005 before he entered politics, Mr Dichter said it had never been intended to kill civilians and insisted that several previous attempts on the life of the Hamas leader were postponed because of intelligence that
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article3231232.ece
-------------------------------------
Israeli minister 'in fear of arrest' cancels UK visit
By Donald Macintyre in Jerusalem
Published: 07 December 2007
A senior Israeli minister has turned down an invitation to visit Britain because of fears he could have been arrested on war crimes charges arising from the assassination of a top Hamas military commander five years ago.
The Israeli foreign ministry advised Avi Dichter, the Public Security minister, that what it described as an "extreme leftist" group was likely to file a legal complaint over the July 2002 bombing attack in Gaza on Saleh Shehadah which killed at least 13 civilians.
Mr Dichter, who had been due to speak at a seminar in King's College London, was at the time head of the domestic intelligence agency Shin Bet, which helped to plan the attack. The bombing, which was internationally criticised â including by the US â because of the civilian loss of life, was described after an internal Israeli investigation as a "mistake".
While Mr Dichter is the first minister to have cancelled a trip for such reasons, the official advice to him followed other cases in which senior generals have refrained from visiting Britain because of similar fears of private legal actions leading to the issue of an arrest warrant.
Asked about the Shehadah bombing in an interview with The Independent in 2005 before he entered politics, Mr Dichter said it had never been intended to kill civilians and insisted that several previous attempts on the life of the Hamas leader were postponed because of intelligence that
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article3231232.ece
Quote from dddooo:
Zinoboys (and girls) kicked, not kissed your terrorist ass... Quite a number of times actually.
Yep wael, these zinogirls kicked your lazy stupid wahhabist ass.
Wait, so are you telling me that all these arab countries got their ass kicked by a bunch of girls, pathetic
Quote from dddooo:
Zinoboys (and girls) kicked, not kissed your terrorist ass... Quite a number of times actually.
Yep wael, these zinogirls kicked your lazy stupid wahhabist ass.
Kicked my lazy wahabist ass?? First of all...I am not a lazy man and I am definetly not Wahabi.
Secondly, are you done collecting the Garbage bags full of your soldier's limbs off southern Lebanon battle field??? I suggest you do that before you start talking about kicking but buddy. Your little cute solders are still traumatized from what happened.
Am I to assume that you would expect me to forgive you now that you have displayed some of your bitches for sale???
Even to you...That is cheap, low and cheesy.
Yeah but England is anti semantic...Didn't you know?!
Israel no nuclear threat to neighbours, says Gates
By Kristin Roberts
Reuters - Saturday, December 8
MANAMA (Reuters) - U.S. Defence Secretary Robert Gates defended Israel's nuclear programme on Saturday, saying the Jewish state did not seek to destroy its neighbours or support terrorism, unlike Iran.
Asked at the Manama Dialogue conference whether Israel's nuclear programme posed a threat to the region, Gates replied: "No, I do not."
The statement was greeted by laughter from a room filled with government officials from Middle Eastern countries.
Israel is widely assumed to have the region's only atomic arsenal, but declines to confirm or deny it. Washington has long avoided pressing Israel to go public with its capabilities.
Gates did not specifically mention Israel's nuclear weapons or arsenal, but responded to questions about its "nuclear programme" -- giving the Pentagon chief room to dismiss any suggestion that he implicitly confirmed the weapons' existence in Israel.
He dismissed the allegation that the United States applied a double standard on the nuclear issue by supporting Israel while calling for Iran to abandon its enrichment activities, which Tehran says are for peaceful purposes.
"Israel is not training terrorists to subvert its neighbours. It has not shipped weapons into a place like Iraq to kill thousands of innocent civilians covertly," Gates said.
((my comments: oh yes they do - it's called the palestine genocide, ongoing. What red-blooded israeli soldier wouldn;t like to kill/torture arabs? It's taught into them))
"It has not threatened to destroy any of its neighbours. It is not trying to destabilise the government of Lebanon.
"So I think there are significant differences in terms of both the history and the behaviour of the Iranian and Israeli governments. I understand there is a difference of view on that," he said.
Iran denies U.S. allegations that it has armed, trained and funded Shi'ite militias in Iraq, blaming the violence in Iraq on the U.S.-led invasion to topple Saddam Hussein in 2003.
A year ago, Gates first angered Israelis during testimony to the U.S. Congress by including Israel in a list of nuclear-armed countries that surround Iran to explain why Tehran might have sought the means to build an atomic bomb. He has not publicly discussed it since.
Israel admits to having two atomic reactors, describing them officially as research facilities. Its refusal to discuss any nuclear weapons capabilities or accept international inspections at the facilities is a major irritant for Arabs and Iran, which see it as a contradiction in U.S. policy in the region.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20071208/twl-uk-israel-nuclear-gates-bd5ae06_1.html
By Kristin Roberts
Reuters - Saturday, December 8
MANAMA (Reuters) - U.S. Defence Secretary Robert Gates defended Israel's nuclear programme on Saturday, saying the Jewish state did not seek to destroy its neighbours or support terrorism, unlike Iran.
Asked at the Manama Dialogue conference whether Israel's nuclear programme posed a threat to the region, Gates replied: "No, I do not."
The statement was greeted by laughter from a room filled with government officials from Middle Eastern countries.
Israel is widely assumed to have the region's only atomic arsenal, but declines to confirm or deny it. Washington has long avoided pressing Israel to go public with its capabilities.
Gates did not specifically mention Israel's nuclear weapons or arsenal, but responded to questions about its "nuclear programme" -- giving the Pentagon chief room to dismiss any suggestion that he implicitly confirmed the weapons' existence in Israel.
He dismissed the allegation that the United States applied a double standard on the nuclear issue by supporting Israel while calling for Iran to abandon its enrichment activities, which Tehran says are for peaceful purposes.
"Israel is not training terrorists to subvert its neighbours. It has not shipped weapons into a place like Iraq to kill thousands of innocent civilians covertly," Gates said.
((my comments: oh yes they do - it's called the palestine genocide, ongoing. What red-blooded israeli soldier wouldn;t like to kill/torture arabs? It's taught into them))
"It has not threatened to destroy any of its neighbours. It is not trying to destabilise the government of Lebanon.
"So I think there are significant differences in terms of both the history and the behaviour of the Iranian and Israeli governments. I understand there is a difference of view on that," he said.
Iran denies U.S. allegations that it has armed, trained and funded Shi'ite militias in Iraq, blaming the violence in Iraq on the U.S.-led invasion to topple Saddam Hussein in 2003.
A year ago, Gates first angered Israelis during testimony to the U.S. Congress by including Israel in a list of nuclear-armed countries that surround Iran to explain why Tehran might have sought the means to build an atomic bomb. He has not publicly discussed it since.
Israel admits to having two atomic reactors, describing them officially as research facilities. Its refusal to discuss any nuclear weapons capabilities or accept international inspections at the facilities is a major irritant for Arabs and Iran, which see it as a contradiction in U.S. policy in the region.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20071208/twl-uk-israel-nuclear-gates-bd5ae06_1.html