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Does God Suffer From Vanity?
- Thread starter Thunderdog
- Start date
Quote from ddunbar:
This is perhaps one of the sadest and most disturbing posts here.
"Stamp out?"
I enjoy atheists who examine religions and their own thoughts and come to the conclusion that religion is not for them. I appreciate the reasons why and the fact that they sometimes need to voice their opinion about religion or justify their reasons for not believing in a god or gods.
But the sentiment quoted above smacks of the worst kind of fascism. The fascism prevalent in the world circa 1930's.
This miliant type of atheism is what gives atheism a bad name (presently and historically) and should be openly rejected and rebuked by other fellow atheists. Atheism is about self-introspection and reason. It should in the least be at its core, the exact opposite of what it accuses religion of.
superstition rises from ignorance. if i had said it was our duty to stamp out ignorance in america it would be the same thing. if over half of americans believe there is a demon called satan roaming around trying to trick people so they go to a place called hell where there is a burning pit of fire we do have a problem of ignorance in america that has to be educated or stamped out of the minds of people.
i used to believe all i had to do was present the evidence and people would see that what they believe has no basis in fact. that has not worked too well. i have come to believe that that it will take a more activist role if we are to ever overcome religious superstition in america.
this time of year is a good time to start. for instance every time you see people state that christmas happens because of Jesus birth was on that day you can point out that the virgin birth story was a fable and even if it were true the evidence shows that it could not have happened in december. that is what i mean by stamping out religious superstition. if enough people stood up and pointed out the truth maybe these bible stories would start being classified as the fables and myths they are.
Perhaps, just perhaps, you want to engage in these types of "debates" as a means to reinforce your decision to practice atheism...
I have to wonder why your "new found" faith in atheism is not in itself sufficient to quell any notion of attempting to argue empiricism vs. faith with the faithful...
I have to wonder why your "new found" faith in atheism is not in itself sufficient to quell any notion of attempting to argue empiricism vs. faith with the faithful...
Quote from Thunderdog:
vhehn,
By way of background, I was raised as a Roman Catholic who believed in God and prayed as a young child until I reached early adolescence. From that point onward, I became an atheist (or agnostic for those with delicate sensibilities).
I worked for 3 years in Saudi Arabia in the early to mid 90s. The bank that employed me was, by far, the best and most considerate employer I ever had. During that time, I worked with a number of very decent people. (And some not so decent people, as in any other workplace.) From time to time, I was able to engage some of my Saudi colleagues in religious discussion. Not with just anyone, mind you, because if the person was so inclined, I could have found myself in quite a bit of trouble. One of them even gave me a translated Koran as a keepsake. These Saudi colleagues were all self-proclaimed true believers who prayed 5 times a day, including at the workplace. Admittedly, some were more devout than others, as evidenced by their conduct and manner of speech. Even so, not a single one of them would even consider the possibility that their beliefs may not be valid. Their religious views were so deeply ingrained into their belief system at a very young age that they simply dismissed, out of hand, any alternative possibilities.
Since I was living at the time in a country whose inhabitants' lives closely revolved around their religious beliefs, I was not overly surprised by the impasse in our debates and discussions. However, I must say that I am a bit surprised that we find ourselves at a similar impasse with such a large proportion of posters right here at home in a supposedly secular society.
Another person who "knows the truth" on a mission to convert the masses...
How bloody evangelical of you.
How bloody evangelical of you.
Quote from vhehn:
superstition rises from ignorance. if i had said it was our duty to stamp out ignorance in america it would be the same thing. if over half of americans believe there is a demon called satan roaming around trying to trick people so they go to a place called hell where there is a burning pit of fire we do have a problem of ignorance in america that has to be educated or stamped out of the minds of people.
i used to believe all i had to do was present the evidence and people would see that what they believe has no basis in fact. that has not worked too well. i have come to believe that that it will take a more activist role if we are to ever overcome religious superstition in america.
this time of year is a good time to start. for instance every time you see people state that christmas happens because of Jesus birth was on that day you can point out that the virgin birth story was a fable and even if it were true the evidence shows that it could not have happened in december. that is what i mean by stamping out religious superstition. if enough people stood up and pointed out the truth maybe these bible stories would start being classified as the fables and myths they are.
neophyte321
Guest
Quote from traderNik:
I envy you your faith.
Your assertion is utter nonsense, but I envy you your faith nonetheless.
Which assertion? That you are naive as to the nature of human beings?
There are and have been many religions that hold cows, monkeys, etc, etc .. up as gods. Do they not exist?
what a joker ...
point, set, match
neophyte321
Guest
Quote from ddunbar:
This is perhaps one of the sadest and most disturbing posts here.
"Stamp out?"
I enjoy atheists who examine religions and their own thoughts and come to the conclusion that religion is not for them. I appreciate the reasons why and the fact that they sometimes need to voice their opinion about religion or justify their reasons for not believing in a god or gods.
But the sentiment quoted above smacks of the worst kind of fascism. The fascism prevalent in the world circa 1930's.
This miliant type of atheism is what gives atheism a bad name (presently and historically) and should be openly rejected and rebuked by other fellow atheists. Atheism is about self-introspection and reason. It should in the least be at its core, the exact opposite of what it accuses religion of.
agreed. what a pompous asshole.
BELIEVE HIM ... he and his kind, would stamp out religion.
Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:
It is one thing to have legitimate complaints with organized religion or organized anything that practices a political process of telling others what to think and do with their lives, it is another to take issue with what a person does in the privacy of their own home.
You of all people, if consistent, should be the champion of the right to believe anything as long as it doesn't impact others and their rights, and to be able to do so without ridicule from others.
Right, that's my position exactly. Every American deserves the (constitutional) right of religious freedom. Feel free to devote your life to worshiping the Flying Spaghetti Monster, as far as I'm concerned. As long as you're not <b>forcing your mysticism on others</b>, I have no objection to it at all.
On the other side of the coin, aggressive atheists like Dawkins have their constitutional rights too. He <b>deserves</b> the freedom to devote <i>his</i> life to publicly ridiculing and taunting the mystics, if that's what he chooses to do.
If that is Dawkins bag, well, as long as people can turn the channel...
It is when there is some political bent to coerce people into any particular belief, atheist, agnostic, or theist that I see major problems.
I see great folly in those who try to challenge personal faith with empiricism, it is a bit like challenging love with relativistic logic, as those who have personal faith, and keep it personal, if it is working for them, they don't care what others do in their own personal life.
Practically speaking though, I think the atheists will go to far in this country, and unfortunately we will see more and more backlashes like we have already seen in the way of the evangelicals voting in a moron like Bush above all common sense, who then appoint theistic judges to the high court....just out of spite.
There is something seriously wrong when we have 5 high court members...all belonging to the same organized religion. That situtation is certainly not representative of the demographics of the USA.
It is when there is some political bent to coerce people into any particular belief, atheist, agnostic, or theist that I see major problems.
I see great folly in those who try to challenge personal faith with empiricism, it is a bit like challenging love with relativistic logic, as those who have personal faith, and keep it personal, if it is working for them, they don't care what others do in their own personal life.
Practically speaking though, I think the atheists will go to far in this country, and unfortunately we will see more and more backlashes like we have already seen in the way of the evangelicals voting in a moron like Bush above all common sense, who then appoint theistic judges to the high court....just out of spite.
There is something seriously wrong when we have 5 high court members...all belonging to the same organized religion. That situtation is certainly not representative of the demographics of the USA.
Quote from Rearden Metal:
Right, that's my position exactly. Every American deserves the (constitutional) right of religious freedom. Feel free to devote your life to worshiping the Flying Spaghetti Monster, as far as I'm concerned. As long as you're not <b>forcing your mysticism on others</b>, I have no objection to it at all.
On the other side of the coin, aggressive atheists like Dawkins have their constitutional rights too. He <b>deserves</b> the freedom to devote <i>his</i> life to publicly ridiculing and taunting the mystics, if that's what he chooses to do.
Quote from vhehn:
superstition rises from ignorance. if i had said it was our duty to stamp out ignorance in america it would be the same thing. if over half of americans believe there is a demon called satan roaming around trying to trick people so they go to a place called hell where there is a burning pit of fire we do have a problem of ignorance in america that has to be educated or stamped out of the minds of people.
i used to believe all i had to do was present the evidence and people would see that what they believe has no basis in fact. that has not worked too well. i have come to believe that that it will take a more activist role if we are to ever overcome religious superstition in america.
this time of year is a good time to start. for instance every time you see people state that christmas happens because of Jesus birth was on that day you can point out that the virgin birth story was a fable and even if it were true the evidence shows that it could not have happened in december. that is what i mean by stamping out religious superstition. if enough people stood up and pointed out the truth maybe these bible stories would start being classified as the fables and myths they are.
Clever. While I can agree about Christmas - that being it is a hijacked "pagan" holiday - the rest of what you said is simply masked hatred and/or malice against religion in the worst way. It would have been better for you to point at the religious and laugh. While arogant, per se, that would at least make it appear that you were on higher ground.
People believe in love. They have all sorts of superstitions about love. There's etiquettes surronding it. Rules even. Much of it is based on ignorance. Love can be classified and "proven" to be mere chemical reactions and a biological imperative born from the evolutionary process. Should we stamp out the "unprovable" and ignorant notions of love?
People believe in certain political ideologies. They have all sorts of superstitions about politics. They even identify themselves by it and/or affliate themselves with a certain politcal dogma. Their entire worldview is seen through the eyes of a political dogma. Their proof that their political dogma of choice is the right one is based on anecdotal evidence and ignorance. Should we "stamp out" politics. An ideology that brings out the best and worst in people.
I could go on.
Just remember, in history, where there was no religion and when religion was outlawed, but only a political ideology remained, great crimes against humanity still persisted. Wonder why that was?
Quote from ddunbar:
Just remember, in history, where there was no religion and when religion was outlawed, but only a political ideology remained, great crimes against humanity still persisted. Wonder why that was?
just remember there was a time in history where religion was in total control. it was a time of mass killings and crimes against humanity. it was called the dark ages:
Christianity and the Death of Civilization
Millions of people make an unconscious link between Christianity and civilization, as if they are synonymous. This page seeks to show how very different they are.
Once upon a time there was a mighty civilization. It knew democracy and republican government. It had city government, public works, and a public water supply. It built roads for thousands of miles. It enjoyed the highest material culture the world had ever seen. It contained more knowledge, science, wisdom and of course wealth than any city had ever known. The city ruled the majority of the known world for centuries and spread peace, prosperity, trade and justice wherever it raised its standard.
Then it became Christian and it entered a thousand years of ignorance, squalor and filth, dragging the civilization of the whole of Europe down with it. The world had entered The Dark Ages.
Was this just a historical coincidence? It is possible. What is not possible is to maintain the fiction that Christianity is the same thing as Civilization. Before Christianity Europe knew civilization, although âthe Holy Landâ didn't, Christianity came along and civilization went away. To make out that Christianity made the world civilized is a travesty.(more)
http://mwillett.org/atheism/christian-civilization.htm