Does any one make money intrady trading

Quote from austinp:

<i>"Why, I could imagine a really clever mentor trading two separate accounts simultaneously in opposite directions, so as to be able to show a profitable track record with little or no risk..."</i>

These are the type of cliche' statements I've heard for years from aspiring traders over and over again. Just one of many tired mantras that never die, it is a seemingly logical thought from someone who has a long way to go before fully understanding all aspects of profitable trading.

Here's the reality veteran traders understand: that scenario above is flat-out impossible to accomplish in today's marketplace. Only in the days of yester-decade where floor traders could rig timestamps was such a two-book scam possible.

Take ten, one hundred or one thousand trades at random, long in one account and short in another as you see fit. Doesn't matter which way is what.

Why? Unless you have a solid edge of trade entry, trade execution and emotional balance to execute those two different and completely separate aspects of trading, both accounts will either finish at par or negative across the board.

*

Layman's logic assumes that one account would be up equal to the other down, minus costs. That is true after one trade. What about five trades? Ten trades? One hundred trades?

No edge in all of those trades = no money in either account at the end. Those who have an edge know better than to try such a failed experiment in the first place :cool:
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I agree. I'm just pointing out that without the entire picture of a person's business, there's no way to know whether or not that person is hiding the bad news.

No one hides bad news on their tax returns, because it's too expensive to do so -- especially over 5 consecutive tax years.

So, if there were someone out there who wanted to charge a small fortune to train an apprentice trader, and that person were actually capable of generating 100%+ on his/her bankroll year over year, then that person would have no reason to hide his/her tax returns, because it would be definitive proof of the ability claimed.

Do I expect anyone to offer me (or anyone else) that sort of info?

Nope. Which is why I'm off to the office now -- baby needs new shoes!
 
Quote from kjkent1:

...The legal profession is not flush with lawyers scamming people for identity theft. You are describing an anomaly and trying to suggest that it has the same predictive weight as what goes on in the private investment advice industry -- where such scams are notorious...
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Actually you missed the point and its not the one you said above.

With that said, here are my last words in this thread...

Tax records that only contains trading info should be good enough for you considering you seem to not be interested in other verification methods like audits and direct contact with the tax accountant.

However, tax records that contains private info that has absolutely NOTHING to do with trading...

Your requirements (the offer) should not involve revealing unrelated info that has nothing to do with trading.

Simply, you should only have access to part of someone's tax records if the tax records contains info not related to trading.

However, if you disagree with my above comments that's an echo of my prior comments...

A mentor or any other professional should not be doing business with you...

Unless the individual (mentor) is naive. :cool:

Mark
 
These threads all end the same way.

Someone asks a reasonable question. Profitable traders give an answer. Then something interesting happens.

All the "mentors" come in and start subtlety pushing their mentor services.Yet, you have real traders that in no uncertain terms will tell you they would never mentor you under the stated conditions for obvious reasons.

I always wonder about people that fall for these ploys. But every night, I see on pay TV all these people selling garbage. I wonder how on earth anyone can fall for these things. And yet, if they weren't, the sellers wouldn't be paying for the ads. On ET, you don't "even have to pay to fall under the ET "don't advertise unless you pay" radar.

KJkent, your skepticism is right on. But your method of achieving your goals is not.

Let me tell you who the traders that are known to make $$ are on this thread:

1) Dustin
2) Lescor
3) Don Bright
4) NYOB
5) DRZhivodka (not sure but that is what I am told)

There are probably others, but I don't know them for sure.

nitro
 
<i>"So, if there were someone out there who wanted to charge a small fortune to train an apprentice trader..."</i>

I don't know anyone (sane) who would stack up $10k in 100s and light the pile with a match. It is indeed a substantial amount of money, to anybody. Even pro athletes making $$ millions per year grouse about $5k or $10k fines when sanctioned.

But a small fortune? Hardly... especially in exchange for "months" of personalized training & tutelage you ask for in return. Anyone you deem qualified for such a task couldn't possibly afford to work with you for more than one week at the price.

Small fortune? Yes relatively speaking, in the real world. Not to the trader's world, which is sharply divided by scant few "haves" and a multitude of "have nots" (as of yet).
 
Quote from nkhoi:

3.BMP

disclaimer: This is not me.
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I notice you did not provide the first three letters of the Account number so we could verify that it is in Simulation mode! :D

PS..I use Ninjatrader also. :cool:
 
"<i>On ET, you don't "even have to pay to fall under the ET don't advertise unless you pay" radar..."</i>

Before I retired from "mentoring" it was never a consideration to pay advertisement here in this forum. Why? Nitro, you're a very bright guy... you know the answer to that already.

Any educational service that advertises here pays for the anonymous crowds' right to free speech. How is that rewarded for the sponsorship dollars spent? By a continual sh*t-storm from flaming trolls.

There are several other venues in our profession, both websites and print magazines that accept articles for free or pay real $$ for them that reach a much larger and certainly more receptive audience than ET.

If the educational article is well-written and factual, it will see print in front of many more traders interested in a serious education than any free open forum.

Advertising logic 101. Right or right?

*

That reality stated, if I ever decide to come out of retirement, I'll pony up the monthly $$ here and support everyone's right to free speech.

It's the least I could do for the actual, literal 100s of individual traders who are active here :D
 
austinp,

I don't know you. To be frank, every time I see a mentoring thread, you are there.

While I honestly don't know if you are a profitable trader or not (who really knows anything online), in my experience traders rarely mentor you, unless you are working for them somehow. In other words, the relationship exists before mentoring is given.

You seem to be a standup guy. But you have to be very careful on the internet, and I for one agree 100% with KJKent's stance, even though his execution is poor.

nitro
Quote from austinp:

"<i>On ET, you don't "even have to pay to fall under the ET don't advertise unless you pay" radar..."</i>

Before I retired from "mentoring" it was never a consideration to pay advertisement here in this forum. Why? Nitro, you're a very bright guy... you know the answer to that already.

Any educational service that advertises here pays for the anonymous crowds' right to free speech. How is that rewarded for the sponsorship dollars spent? By a continual sh*t-storm from flaming trolls.

There are several other venues in our profession, both websites and print magazines that accept articles for free or pay for them that reach a much larger and certainly more receptive audience than ET.

If the educational article is well-written and factual, it will see print in front of many more traders interested in a serious education than any free open forum.

Advertising logic 101. Right or right?

*

That reality stated, if I ever decide to come out of retirement, I'll pony up the monthly $$ here and support everyone's right to free speech.

It's the least I could do for the actual, literal 100s of individual traders who are active here :D
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Comment: The debate here is a prime example of why we started structured training programs 15 years ago. So many had asked if they could simply sit next to, or be mentored by, a successful trader. Well, the answer was "yes and no." Some had that privilege on the trading floors in the old days, but primarily the new traders would be taken under the wing of existing traders for a longer term "piece of the action" profit split. This still goes on within some of our sub groups.

But for the independent newer traders who wanted this mentoring, it just didn't make sense to very many long time traders. Whether it was a $10K fee or $100K fee, most didn't want to be bothered. OTOH, in growing a trading business, we had a vested interest in helping new people get started with the best possible chance for long term success.

I have been able to compensate some of my better traders to help me and my brother teach these classes and boot camps. By having 30-50 people attend for $1,000 (school), $1500 (boot camp, live trading), it made sense for our guys to take time out of their trading day to spend with the class...both lecture and live trading.

The fact that we also provide a $million or more in trading capital to our people means that we can teach completely different strategies and techniques than the average retail guy can engage in.

Someone mentioned making on 100% annually on their bankroll. Well, if our traders put up $25K, and make a good 6 figure income, then that is obviously much better. The fact that they're "using" our money is irrevelevent since the money is simply another trading tool.

Our trainees actually do get to sit right next to one of our top traders for a time during bootcamp, and are always within a few feet of existing, successful traders.

We do this in a collective teaching environment, and many follow up with a longer term, in office or online, mentoring program as well.

Some of the instructor's may share their Goldman sheets (where the K-1 taxable income comes from), or their K-1's, but we cannot share that information with others for obvious reasons.

Even with all of this, it is the new trader who is responsible for the learning process. 2 traders can sit right next to each, trade the same stock(s) all day, engage in same strategies (opening only, MOC imbalances, pairs, etc.) and have completely different results.

Again, just a comment, I know it may appear like I'm trying to "sell" something, but it's just that I have been around this discussion a zillion times over the years.

All the best,

Don
 
<i>"I don't know you. To be frank, every time I see a mentoring thread, you are there. "</i>

My feeble attempts to defend the profession. No dog in the hunt here today... my original post in this thread had less than zero chance of being accepted.

The OP is not honestly serious about an equal exchange. $10k for months of tutelage from someone with 5+ years of 100% annual returns?

You don't see me in many threads here because in reality there isn't much topic of conversation that interests me. The current list of recent topics attached. It's of interest to others of course, but there ain't nothing there for me.

I'm digging deep for trader conversation just wasting time in this one. My posts had zero chance of accepting any offers or reaching any open, receptive ears.

Wasted time, wasted bytes.

Signed off :)
 

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