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Do you tell people you're a trader?
- Thread starter raszorz
- Start date
Quote from I Missed Boat:
This is true only if one is a good teacher, doctor or policeman. But do people open up businesses for anything other than purely selfish pursuits? Give me a break. The vast majority of people work to make money, and they hope to do something enjoyable in the process.
Agree with your first assertion. Also agree that people work to make money. However, you guys are pretty funny in the way you (collectively, not necessarily you) dismiss out hand the notion that anyone looks to get something more than money out of their work. You can tell a lot about people by what they assume about others.
A great many people get satisfaction out of the productiveness of their careers, whether it be creating art that others can enjoy, or teaching a subject that helps someone live a better life, or treating illnesses, or what have you.
The idea that there is no such thing as a noble profession that creates a greater good, other than simply a zero-sum wealth transfer is an insidious lie. Period.
Quote from Thunderdog:
A rather warranted assumption given the general tenor of your posts, wouldn't you say? Please be honest with yourself and admit that you have some kind of repulsion to the markets.
Very interesting assumptions you are making. I say market trading is the selfish pursuit of wealth transfer with a zero-sum outcome and you make the assertion that I have "some kind of revulsion to the markets." It simply doesn't follow. I don't. Read on.
If you don't believe me, then ask a trusted friend to read your posts and draw his own conclusions.
The vast majority of the population consistently make the kind of logical errors you're displaying here. Watching one more make them doesn't teach me anything.
Once you get past that, you may then wish to consider why you are drawn to sites such as Elite Trader.
To learn about trading.
I don't know what your history is with the markets.
It's limited. I have made modest sums from market investments. However, I have significant experience with a somewhat analogous activity: the game of poker.
People sit at a poker table with the selfish expectation of taking other people's money. It is a zero-sum (negative with the rake) activity. Many people make their professions at it. I make a significant fraction of my income at it. I see a very strong analogy with trading something like index futures. Nearly all participants are trying to take money from others by having more information or using the information available to them more intelligently. Your win is someone else's loss and vice-versa. (At this point I don't invent silly things like saying greater volume allows for lower rake, so I am providing a "service" by playing. Or that by making bets I am providing a service for others to take them. That's just goofy.)
That being said, let's return to the original topic, which was "do you tell people you're a trader". You could ask the same of a poker player, and the ensuing conversation would look almost identical, and for many of the same reasons. I know because I've had this conversation many times, both in real life and on boards like this.
People often are put off by my poker playing because they see it as predatory behavior: taking from those who are less intelligent than me. They are, in fact, correct. It IS predatory behavior, taking money from others who aren't as smart or skilled as I.
But, in fact this is the way many things in life work, without people realizing it. If I take a job because I have certain superior skills, I have taken it away from someone else. But almost no one would claim taking a job is predatory behavior or have the same emotional reaction to it.
I am not revulsed by my poker playing any more than I am revulsed by the markets. I simply accept it for what it is, without trying to put lipstick and a wig on it. This is a competitive world we live in.
Ok, so finally let me address the idea that "there is no noble profession." I think that's an insidious lie, and anyone who purports to believe that has some serious soul searching to do.
The nobility of a profession in my opinion can be estimated by the _net_ gain or loss in happiness, integrated over time, that is created as a byproduct of its practice in a society.
In an economically zero-sum activity like poker or trading, this is not necessarily exactly zero but zero is a good first approximation. Poker isn't particularly valuable in this sense. I don't see any reason to believe trading the markets is, either. Zero is certainly better than negative, and there are of course many who make thier livings deliberately hurting people and destroying themselves in the process. Maybe a crack dealer is a good example.
However, you can't deny that some things don't work this way. Some technology, medicine, education, there are many pursuits which can result in net gains of happiness.
None of this is cut-and-dry, of course. If I am using trading or poker as a vehicle to create wealth with which I plan to help needy children, that is a noble thing to do, because the money which is in my pocket now presumably has more intrinsic value than it does in someone else's pocket.
In fact this is what some have done when they faced down the non-productiveness of their chosen careers. Take Barry Greenstein, for example.
Enough typing. Have a nice day, folks.
Quote from flat5:
Agree with your first assertion. Also agree that people work to make money. However, you guys are pretty funny in the way you (collectively, not necessarily you) dismiss out hand the notion that anyone looks to get something more than money out of their work. You can tell a lot about people by what they assume about others.
A great many people get satisfaction out of the productiveness of their careers, whether it be creating art that others can enjoy, or teaching a subject that helps someone live a better life, or treating illnesses, or what have you.
The idea that there is no such thing as a noble profession that creates a greater good, other than simply a zero-sum wealth transfer is an insidious lie. Period.
And that is why I said "the vast majority of people." Only a very small portion of people sacrifice greater income in something they would enjoy in order to do something they feel provides a greater contribution to society. What's more, only a small portion of occupations can truly be argued to meet this goal (and even those assume the person in the given occupation is motivated and good at it). So if you're comparing trading to the vast majority of occupations insofar as people performing them in order to better themselves financially (or because they enjoy their jobs) then fine. But if you're singling out trading, then you are really twisting reality.
BTW, most people who think little of short-term trading now do not even think that much about the markets. Most who look down on it don't look down on it because, as you said, they believe there is little that is productive about the job (which wouldn't be fully accurate anyway). After all, during the boom successful daytraders were commonly admired. Most people look down on it because they think nearly everyone doing it is not making anything, or at least that they aren't making anything that isn't a result of gambling and luck (ie they view it the same as if you said you won the slot machine in Vegas).
Quote from flat5:
(At this point I don't invent silly things like saying greater volume allows for lower rake, so I am providing a "service" by playing. Or that by making bets I am providing a service for others to take them. That's just goofy.)
What's silly about adding liquidity and tightening spreads for the general public (and yes, making commissions smaller). You have yet to explain how that isn't a service.
If a trade is executed between two parties that desire to do so, doesnât it allow both parties to potentially profit?
Quote from flat5:
After all, you could be a teacher, or a doctor, or a policeman, and help others in the process of earning a living, rather than simply taking people's money.
Trading is about a certain number of things :
- Bearing risk for a premium (otherwise, having fixed rates or being able to hedge against oil price would be impossible)
- Providing liquidity (otherwise, investment would be very expensive)
- Buying low and selling high (i.e. timely taking advantage of opportunities)
- Bearing risk for a premium (otherwise, having fixed rates or being able to hedge against oil price would be impossible)
- Providing liquidity (otherwise, investment would be very expensive)
- Buying low and selling high (i.e. timely taking advantage of opportunities)