Err - don't go there. Kingstree is a fucking monster. It's probably why they can afford to keep deadweight like Brett on the payroll - because I think it's painfully obvious the guy makes no money from trading. The only non-linear compensation he gets is probably in exchange for hyping books on amazon.com
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Do you feel insulted when people like Brett Steenbarger talks down to traders?
- Thread starter mahram
- Start date
Err - don't go there. Kingstree is a fucking monster. It's probably why they can afford to keep deadweight like Brett on the payroll - because I think it's painfully obvious the guy makes no money from trading. The only non-linear compensation he gets is probably in exchange for hyping books on amazon.com
Quote from nitro:
There is nothing wrong with fading the ES at any time under any circumstances where the trade has a positive expectancy. I do it all the time. The key is not to lose money on those days if that is what you end up doing.
People that talk about the market in these terms don't know what trading is about.
nitro
Guess you didn't read my post. He lost money. That's why he wrote about it.
steenbab, do you mean new retail traders or experienced retail traders. I think if you are talking about brand new traders who never made a trade in their life, I think you will have a huge learning curve. And lots of people falling out. But I think for the institutional traders, who are brand new you will have the same level of learning curves. But there you have people who are willing to mentor and train them. And help them go throught the common mistakes. Also I think you have alot retail traders out there who were once in the institutional side. Who either quite for personal reasons, or who wants more independence. I think people who are able to sustain a living of 60-100K a year as successful traders. They might be able to make more in other professions, but those people love trading and the markets. They might not make a billion a year. But like a basketball team, not everybody could be a michael jordan, but they could be a larry bird. Not the best, might not have the greatest talent, but if you keep working at, you would have a long carreer.
Quote from steenbab:
Hello to all, and thanks for the thread. I'm sorry to see that my posting on professional and amateur traders came across as condescending. That was not my intention. I was simply trying to compare the professional trader who has sustained success with "the average independent trader who is trying to make a living".
I don't think it's any surprise to most people that the average trader does not sustain profitability in the marketplace. A very well-placed industry source recently shared with me that the time it takes the average independent trader to open an account to the time he/she runs through that account is less than 7 months.
Does that mean that all independent traders are worthless amateurs? Of course not. I know a number of successful retail traders personally and can attest to their skills and results. But I also have seen how they trade and know that they have put in professional-grade efforts to identify their edge in the markets and to keep ahead of the curve as markets change.
I wrote my post to counteract the unfortunate hype in the industry that promises wonderful results if you just use a particular vendor's software or follow a special guru's recommendations. It's just not that easy. The average athlete doesn't have a realistic shot at being a pro. The average singer doesn't end up on Broadway. And when you see amateurs truly succeed--think of Kelly Clarkson winning American Idol and going on to record a blockbuster album--it's because they are not average.
In any case, thanks for the opportunity for clarification. I sincerely apologize to any I might have offended.
I, for one, am impressed with the guy's patience in the face of such incredible boorishness.
Dr. Steenbarger, if you are still here, could you expand on this statement made in another recent article of yours:
"The less successful traders are anticipating market movement and trading accordingly. The highly successful traders are identifying asset class mispricings and trading off those."
Dr. Steenbarger, if you are still here, could you expand on this statement made in another recent article of yours:
"The less successful traders are anticipating market movement and trading accordingly. The highly successful traders are identifying asset class mispricings and trading off those."
I'm happy to explain what I meant by, "The less successful traders are anticipating market movement and trading accordingly. The highly successful traders are identifying asset class mispricings and trading off those."
The very successful traders I observed had a keen sense for value: what their market was really worth compared to where it was trading now. They didn't just get bullish or bearish because of an indicator, chart pattern, or trend. Instead, they compared their market to where it should be and developed trade ideas from that.
A simple example would be a trader who sells a call option because it is trading well above its theoretical (fair) value. A bit more complicated is a program trader who sells S&P futures when they rise well above fair value and simultaneously buys the underlying stocks, pocketing the difference when they come back in line.
A different example would be a short-term trader who sees the ES run up 5 ticks when locals pull their offers, taking the market above the day's value area in a Market Profile. Since very little actually trades on the runup, the trader sells the Spooz, anticipating a return to the value area.
I'm not suggesting that this is the only way to make money. It did, however, stand out among the successful traders I met with as one way that they thought about markets. One nice aspect of this way of thinking is that it provides the trader with potential profit targets as well as entry points.
The very successful traders I observed had a keen sense for value: what their market was really worth compared to where it was trading now. They didn't just get bullish or bearish because of an indicator, chart pattern, or trend. Instead, they compared their market to where it should be and developed trade ideas from that.
A simple example would be a trader who sells a call option because it is trading well above its theoretical (fair) value. A bit more complicated is a program trader who sells S&P futures when they rise well above fair value and simultaneously buys the underlying stocks, pocketing the difference when they come back in line.
A different example would be a short-term trader who sees the ES run up 5 ticks when locals pull their offers, taking the market above the day's value area in a Market Profile. Since very little actually trades on the runup, the trader sells the Spooz, anticipating a return to the value area.
I'm not suggesting that this is the only way to make money. It did, however, stand out among the successful traders I met with as one way that they thought about markets. One nice aspect of this way of thinking is that it provides the trader with potential profit targets as well as entry points.
I traded for self, props, big and small, and thankfully on my own. Takes years to find consistency. However, i admit I am very fortunate to find a local mentor two years ago to be weekl.y consistently profitable. I can list the attributes of only him, not his name of course. He is only west coast guy i met who makes 7 figures trading his own money not OPM. You comparte to Dr. Brett's findings:
1. Works countless hours, all nite, extremely passionate.
2. Trades multiple markets, including overseas.
3. Invests Thousands in Software, including Customize
4. Has trading contacts in Europe and Asia, 24 hours, as partners, resources.
5. Very analytical in numbers, logic sense not complex algorithms.
Keen memory to mumbers, price.
1. Works countless hours, all nite, extremely passionate.
2. Trades multiple markets, including overseas.
3. Invests Thousands in Software, including Customize
4. Has trading contacts in Europe and Asia, 24 hours, as partners, resources.
5. Very analytical in numbers, logic sense not complex algorithms.
Keen memory to mumbers, price.
Dr. Brett,
I want to apologize to you on behalf of this board for some of the juvenile comments directed your way. I go back to the old Meta Markets board with you, and I will just state without qualification that I have never seen you be anything but unfailing polite and helpful to anyone from newbies on up. I know your insights have helped me tremendously over the years. Your sites are among the best out there for unbiased research and savvy observation, and they are literally the first thing I go to every morning when I fire up the computers.
As for those who criticize this man for not publicizing his trading results or making a fortune from trading, I would agree with you if he were trying to sell a trading course or expensive trading room. He isn't. He is doing what he does because he has a passion for the markets, a deep intellectual curiosity and the skill and discipline to do the scut work that most of us avoid. In the best tradition of academic research, he shares his work freely.
I hope you will continue to participate in this forum.
I want to apologize to you on behalf of this board for some of the juvenile comments directed your way. I go back to the old Meta Markets board with you, and I will just state without qualification that I have never seen you be anything but unfailing polite and helpful to anyone from newbies on up. I know your insights have helped me tremendously over the years. Your sites are among the best out there for unbiased research and savvy observation, and they are literally the first thing I go to every morning when I fire up the computers.
As for those who criticize this man for not publicizing his trading results or making a fortune from trading, I would agree with you if he were trying to sell a trading course or expensive trading room. He isn't. He is doing what he does because he has a passion for the markets, a deep intellectual curiosity and the skill and discipline to do the scut work that most of us avoid. In the best tradition of academic research, he shares his work freely.
I hope you will continue to participate in this forum.
I apologize last post continued
6. Uses no mainstream indicators, but makes use of a couple out there to hHIS parameters, less lagging. Looks to make current better.
7. Continues to refine, and adapt to new/existing markets,time.
8. Focuses on time as much as price.
9.Rarely losing day. One every 2-3 months. Relentless.
10. Does not go to any website other than news, economic reports, or CNBC
11. Huge believer in mindset, Emotional Intelligence, over IQ.
12. Only believes himself. Why dont so called experts post one account and show/prove profit over time? Because so FEW. can over period of time. Where show me?
13. ONLY TESTS NEW IDEAS REAL TIME. Yes even if it loses thousands of $$>
14. Has lot of fun in spare time, I know, trust me.
15. Intense focus when in trade than before entry.
16. Always invests in people, technology, and psyshological issues constantly.
17. These are just a few facts to compare to Dr. Brett.
Thanks, good thread.
6. Uses no mainstream indicators, but makes use of a couple out there to hHIS parameters, less lagging. Looks to make current better.
7. Continues to refine, and adapt to new/existing markets,time.
8. Focuses on time as much as price.
9.Rarely losing day. One every 2-3 months. Relentless.
10. Does not go to any website other than news, economic reports, or CNBC
11. Huge believer in mindset, Emotional Intelligence, over IQ.
12. Only believes himself. Why dont so called experts post one account and show/prove profit over time? Because so FEW. can over period of time. Where show me?
13. ONLY TESTS NEW IDEAS REAL TIME. Yes even if it loses thousands of $$>
14. Has lot of fun in spare time, I know, trust me.
15. Intense focus when in trade than before entry.
16. Always invests in people, technology, and psyshological issues constantly.
17. These are just a few facts to compare to Dr. Brett.
Thanks, good thread.