Why do we feel so degraded by the concept of reward/punishment? Everything in our natural existence is governed by cause and effect, where actions have consequences. The concept of reward and punishment is deeply rooted in our understanding of how the world operates. It reflects the inherent human desire for justice, fairness, and accountability.
Do only humans have souls that go to heaven or hell, or does it apply to all forms of life?
- Thread starter Frederick Foresight
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Why do we feel so degraded by the concept of reward/punishment? Everything in our natural existence is governed by cause and effect, where actions have consequences. The concept of reward and punishment is deeply rooted in our understanding of how the world operates. It reflects the inherent human desire for justice, fairness, and accountability.
I don't feel degraded. I agree your actions should have consequences. But they should be in real time, not after you die.
While it is undeniable that in some religious spheres a blatant transactional relationship with the Divine has engulfed the traditional religious experience, (although, perhaps unavoidable for the masses, but leaving space for a rich engagement with the metaphysical by the philosophers and mystics) the concept of reward/punishment is central to Divine Justice. It is not only logical, but necessary that individuals are held accountable for their actions because every sane individual has the freedom to choose between layers of good and evil.
Justice cannot always be served in real time. We have to accept that God's judgment reflects an understanding that there will be consequences for our actions and choices in this life, extending into the realm of the eternal. It is only for God to judge humans. The truly wicked who harm humanity should expect stern Divine Justice. God is also perpetually forgiving. His love and compassion overshadows his wrath. Divine Justice is not arbitrary or capricious but rather rooted in wisdom, mercy, and an understanding of the entirety of a person's life and intentions. So maybe through sincere inquiry and introspection, individuals can strive to reconcile their understanding of Divine Justice with their own sense of justice, compassion, and the inherent dignity of all beings.
You mean to say that if I can get away with it until I die I'll be alright, isn't a good strategy?
If I'm wrong then I can always ask forgiveness after I die. I doubt if She puts a time limit on asking for forgiveness.
It's very easy to be conned in this life, humans are easily conned.
Humans are easily conned by power, affluence, smooth talkers, good lookers, sex, fancy clothes, appearances, royalty, bribery, trickery, religion...the list goes on....
At the time, how do you or anyone know they are not being conned by a scam? (religion).
Why for example are Catholics conned and protestants aren't?
Why perhaps both aren't conned?
Humans are easily conned by power, affluence, smooth talkers, good lookers, sex, fancy clothes, appearances, royalty, bribery, trickery, religion...the list goes on....
At the time, how do you or anyone know they are not being conned by a scam? (religion).
Why for example are Catholics conned and protestants aren't?
Why perhaps both aren't conned?
Thank-you for your reply.
To your original question I have given some thought as to how to formulate a reply.
- preamble
- direct answer
- secondary point
This has additional information giving context which may be of value to others especially those with little knowledge of the subject of Christianity - what it is and is not as briefly as I can. Most likely you are not interested, but there may be some readers who are and if can be of assistant to them, then my post may prove of value greater than my time lost.
Preamble:
1. Language has many limitations for expressing spiritual concepts.
Though language might describe things well on the material plane (e.g. the table was made of maple, 3.5 ft tall, 4 ft wide and 3 feet in depth) it is difficult to describe things in the spiritual realm.
So things are sometimes expressed in symbolism, sometimes with analogy, metaphors and parables and of course directly. The reader must want to, must be able to exercise his brain, and have some spiritual knowledge on which to build.
As an example, a physicist may need to have a background of study before being able to grasp latent heat. Those without any physics background would not expect to be able to understand the concept. (Strangely though in spiritual matters most everyone seems to imagine their opinion as just valid as everyone else.)
2. One needs a desire to understand to understand.
A closed mind is as useful as a closed parachute in breaking your fall.
"Let those who have ears, hear"
3. Confusing self-labeling with actuality
Many people (and organizations/church power structures) may label themselves as Christians without being Christians. There are 3 requirements to being a Christian:
a. Believing that Jesus is Divine, descended and incarnated into flesh, died on the cross for our sins, rose from the dead and then re-ascended to heaven.
b. Sincere deep heart felt repentance.
c. Loving Jesus = learning and following Jesus's teachings (as best you can).
(For those who want to know more reading the 4 gospels and the Letter of James)
re "c.":
"What is the point of calling 'Lord, Lord', without doing what I tell you to do? Luke 6:46
"Those who love me will follow my commandments.
So you cannot be a christian and hate, judge and look down on others (-just the beginning of the list of teachings/commandments). For example, the Catholic church is not Christian. You can't rape and sodomize children, carry out the inquisition tortures, worship money and be a Christian.
So if a viper self-labels itself a lamb it doesn't make it a lamb, it is still hissing, evil and poisonous.
4. Jesus completed the Old Testament (Jews bible) by fulfilling the prophecies (which include dying on the cross). It is done. The New Testament is in effect.
"no one puts new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled, and the skins will be destroyed." Luke 5:37
5. Salvation
Jesus's ministry was 3 years from age 30 to 33.
During his ministry He performed many miracles and taught the new message, the gospel (gospel=good news). The good news was that salvation, which had previously been impossible though good works alone was now possible. (Read John 1 leaving logos and logos and not the translation of "word".)
'Who then can be saved?" asked the stunned disciples.
- What is impossible for man is possible for God. Luke 18:26,27
6. The spiritual realm is different than the material realm.
Here in the material plane we are in the plane of limitation. There are edges, boundaries, the discrete. In the spiritual realm is different.
Here are two examples: one of the Sadducees (priests) attempt to trap Jesus, and where heaven "is".
a. The priests - being for the most part the evil bunch that they were and are were trying to trip Jesus up.
"Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”
- Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. Matthew 22:28,29
b. Later, he was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, and he gave them the reply:
'The kingdom of God never comes by watching for it. Men cannot say, 'Look there it is' or 'there is is' for the Kingdom of God is inside you."
Luke 17:20,21 - The New Testament in Modern English J.B. Phillips
7. The New testament has many English translations
The Gospels were first written in Greek (Aramaic was Jesus's spoken language).
There are 4 (that are retained) within the New Testament. They are not necessarily "written" by the 4 but attributed to them. The 4 apostles (=taught by Jesus) they are attributed to are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. These are 4 of the 12 chosen disciples Jesus selected out of his many disciples.
biblehub.com
and
biblegateway.com
are two online sources with numerous versions. For some passages it is good to read it in several versions. New International Version (NIV) and American Standard might be some choices to start with. The key is to understand at a spiritual level what is being said. Sometimes you need to go to the Greek (also on line at the above) and see the available translations of a word, look at the context and ponder on it.
As an example Here is Luke 17:21 in NIV
"nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
So you see one is saying "in your midst" and Phillips has "for the Kingdom of God is inside you."
These are quite different meanings - at least at one level
=== end of preamble==
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===direct answer===
The Bible does not speak on this point. The bible is basically the Jewish bible (=Yanuk) and the New Testament (Jesus and after) and is concerned with mankind's relationship with God.
========================
Adam and Eve within Genesis, is not to be taken literally. (see preamble :So things are sometimes expressed in symbolism, sometimes with analogy, metaphors and parables and of course directly.)
Personally I don't waste a lot of time with the Old testament. I feel that for Christians until you know all of Jesus's commandments - see preamble - you don't believe Jesus is Divine and you don't love him (he who loves me follows my teachings.
To Emphasize - you cannot receive the greatest gift ever given to human kind until you fulfill the 3 requirements.
you do not believe Jesus is the Divine savoir sent to break the eternal bondage we are in.
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Also the Old testament has many contradictions and lots of meaningless stuff and as Jesus has completed it -- he first came to save the house of Israel and when they rejected him as he known they would the message of salvation was to be shared with everyone. It is available to all, but not forced on anyone.
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If one really wanted to reach, one could choose to interpret "made in our image" meaning man has a divine soul but not animals.
but really the best answer is that the bible does speak to the question.
The Bible does not speak on this point. The bible is basically the Jewish bible (=Yanuk) and the New Testament (Jesus and after) and is concerned with mankind's relationship with God.
========================
Adam and Eve within Genesis, is not to be taken literally. (see preamble :So things are sometimes expressed in symbolism, sometimes with analogy, metaphors and parables and of course directly.)
Personally I don't waste a lot of time with the Old testament. I feel that for Christians until you know all of Jesus's commandments - see preamble - you don't believe Jesus is Divine and you don't love him (he who loves me follows my teachings.
To Emphasize - you cannot receive the greatest gift ever given to human kind until you fulfill the 3 requirements.
you do not believe Jesus is the Divine savoir sent to break the eternal bondage we are in.
------
Also the Old testament has many contradictions and lots of meaningless stuff and as Jesus has completed it -- he first came to save the house of Israel and when they rejected him as he known they would the message of salvation was to be shared with everyone. It is available to all, but not forced on anyone.
----------------
If one really wanted to reach, one could choose to interpret "made in our image" meaning man has a divine soul but not animals.
but really the best answer is that the bible does speak to the question.
secondary point========
There is no way that polluting the planet, poisoning the land, air and sea, torturing animals, cruelty wiping them out ect. is in keeping with God's teachings.
We are to love and care for them and nature - we are guardians of them.
From new testament:
God is love.
Be perfect like the father so you may be sons of god.
God created everything and there is nothing created he did not create,
Not even the tiniest sparrow falls from the sky but that the Father knows of it, so how much more does he care for you.
You cannot have the qualities Jesus teaches and then be cruel to (or obliterate) animals. No one with the slightest degree of heart would to the awful disgusting things that man has done to animals, porpoises and whales etc.
After watched many videos of animals doing wonderful things to save humans they are attached to it is inconceivable that they do not have "souls" (So once again we are up against word limitations so hear I mean soul as heart, love). Anyone who has had a dog as a pet has experienced the unconditional love they can give. Loyalty, unconditional love, sacrificing their live for their owners.. many express more of the love Jesus asks us to than humans.
so my secondary answer is this: Animals can show great love. I can't say if they continue to an afterlife but you should treat them with the love and respect they deserve. You don't love God if you mistreat his creation.
The arrogant ugly soul "scientists" who like F a u c i ' s N I H, funding "experiments where they cage dogs and let the fleas eat it's alive"
It is so f k-ing disgusting.
I'm sure they will rot.
p.s. There are some uglies who twist the Old Testament "man will have dominion over all the animals" to suit themselves and their evil hearts and take it to mean they can do what they want to animals - not true and not God's teaching.
There is no way that polluting the planet, poisoning the land, air and sea, torturing animals, cruelty wiping them out ect. is in keeping with God's teachings.
We are to love and care for them and nature - we are guardians of them.
From new testament:
God is love.
Be perfect like the father so you may be sons of god.
God created everything and there is nothing created he did not create,
Not even the tiniest sparrow falls from the sky but that the Father knows of it, so how much more does he care for you.
You cannot have the qualities Jesus teaches and then be cruel to (or obliterate) animals. No one with the slightest degree of heart would to the awful disgusting things that man has done to animals, porpoises and whales etc.
After watched many videos of animals doing wonderful things to save humans they are attached to it is inconceivable that they do not have "souls" (So once again we are up against word limitations so hear I mean soul as heart, love). Anyone who has had a dog as a pet has experienced the unconditional love they can give. Loyalty, unconditional love, sacrificing their live for their owners.. many express more of the love Jesus asks us to than humans.
so my secondary answer is this: Animals can show great love. I can't say if they continue to an afterlife but you should treat them with the love and respect they deserve. You don't love God if you mistreat his creation.
The arrogant ugly soul "scientists" who like F a u c i ' s N I H, funding "experiments where they cage dogs and let the fleas eat it's alive"
It is so f k-ing disgusting.
I'm sure they will rot.
p.s. There are some uglies who twist the Old Testament "man will have dominion over all the animals" to suit themselves and their evil hearts and take it to mean they can do what they want to animals - not true and not God's teaching.
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