Do markets change? Trend Following.

Quote from makloda:

We all know what happens to people who go after systems/return that consistently make money in all markets, like clockwork.

See LTCM, Niederhoffer and Madoff :cool:

I agree.

People just have to learn to accept that drawdowns and periods of poor performance are just part of ANY system.

Eg.
Renaissance went through a period of poor performance earlier this year.
Paul Tudor Jones has had some very average years.
Bill Dunn started off with a 50% drawdown.
 
Quote from AFJ Garner:

Markets DO change. Trend Following DOES work. Yes.

Here are another couple of statements which will raise howls of anguish and disapproval:

Prediction IS necessary in trend following.

Discretion IS an integral part of mechanical systems trading.

It is perhaps not "necessary" to trade multiple systems, whether trend following or otherwise, to achieve some degree of smoothness. I do not think that Druz/Tactical does (judging from the disclosure document) and I like his results (apart from the 53% drawdown in the very early days). I think that most traders, given enough research and effort, can arrive at a single TF system which they will find bearable to trade in terms of win/loss ratio, drawdown, length of drawdown, volatility. Although they may not be able to approach the Transtrend example.

“Prediction” is necessary in a number of ways. For example, to take some sort of view on the likelihood of your system remaining profitable into the future (at least for a while). Prediction is an integral part of trend following: it says " I have spent much time back testing my plan and if in the immediate future the market does not change TOO quickly I EXPECT similar performance for the future”. Then, for a while, the trader can sit back and take his system’s trades without too much reflection. But to suggest that TF is purely reactive is abject nonsense.

“Discretion” is an integral part of so called mechanical systems trading because many decisions need to be made which (at the present time at least) can not be taken by a computer algorithm. The examples are legion but here a few thoughts: what portfolio will I trade, when and how will I alter my portfolio; what parameters will I set for my system and how and when will I alter these; a change in my data has caused a position to mysteriously appear/disappear – what should I do about it; 24 hour markets are changing the way people deal and the pools of liquidity – should I really leave my stops in the market any more;……………..and on and on and on.

Precious few of such questions strike the trader until he has spent a while trading mechanically and has lived through such moments.

The hapless beginner (and we are all beginners at some point in time) will spend much time reading books, buying courses and contributing to threads. He will only later learn that much of the “wisdom” he reads out there comes from those who make their money from the fringes of the trading world selling trading advice but not necessarily trading for themselves.

In a hilarious exchange on Seykota’s website, he suggests that Van Tharp should change the name of his best known book to “WRITE Your Way To Financial Freedom”.

Beware the BS. You will come to recognise it. Unfortunately it is not so easy until you haver a little trading experience under your belt.

In the meantime, those contemplating trend following or any other form of mechanical rule based trading have a very powerful anti BS spray at their disposal: back testing. Use it.

Solid post.

What is the name of your book and when will it be released?
 
Quote from TSGannGalt:

What ssb is saying is the same things as "The fact that markets change(has infinite variance), does not change".

I think my post made it very clear that I understood and agreed with this point. We are talking about exactly the same thing, not two different things. My point is that in the infinity of time you MAY WELL see every variety of market possible coming round again and again and that therefore there is no need to change a system. EVER. Theoretically. You just wait until its time has come again. A system will go through winning and losing periods throughout infinity again and again.

I then turned from theory to practice. I said, never mind that markets never change because they have infinite variety over an infinite period: in the practical time frame of a human life or a human working life they DO change. You will get a system working for a period and then ceasing to work. And that therefore you DO need to change your system if (in practice and within your life time) you want to make money.

I do not consider this discussion fruitless. We are a bunch of people talking through the theory and practice of profitting from trend following in the markets.
 
Quote from thetrendfollowe:

Solid post.

What is the name of your book and when will it be released?

I believe you will find it on Amazon. It is called "A Practical Guide to ETF Trading Systems". You will find it under my name "Anthony Garner".

Beware - this is NOT a book which will help you to make "millions in up and down markets"! It simply and methodically compares buy and hold to simple trend following systems on a variety of portfolios in increasing order of diversification and concludes that the use of a simple system can provide better risk adjusted returns to buy and hold.

It goes on to outline a few simple "money management" regimes which should enable you to see a higher CAGR (at the cost of higher vol and DD) without the use of leverage.

Simple as it sounds there seem to be a huge number of people out there to whom such a guide may be of value.

I am a little embarrassed to mention the book - I am a trader not an author and self promotion makes me very feel awkward.

The reason I started this thread was not to promote my wares but to try to dispel some of the misguided nonsense you find in sales pitches on the web.
 
Quote from AFJ Garner:

The reason I started this thread was not to promote my wares but to try to dispel some of the misguided nonsense you find in sales pitches on the web.

You promote a man whose firm was ripping off clients only to finally see that firm be barred by the CFTC...and you hold yourself out as a noble protector of newbies? Interesting stance.
 
Tell you guys what:

"Mike Covel and Curtis Faith rules"

Oh wait... we're forgetting two more guy...

"Mike Covel, Curtis Faith, Russell Sands and AFJ Garner rules"

End of story?

Seriously...

Mike, I bought you and Russell's courses, a long long time ago. It was my first exposure to mechanical trading. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for that. I appreciate the fact that you guys made the Turtle rules available to the public.

After being exposed to your material, I got interested in general systematic trading and followed the old school Omega-List and Chuck's Traders Club. The tradition and the old school guys moved to Curtis' forum. I learned a lot from them. Curtis provided some solid research regarding MPT and Monte Carlo. AFJ Garner's made some good posts in here.

So all in all, you've help people out. With more experience behind me and a thought of my own, I don't agree to some of what you guys write/say. But it doesn't mean I don't respect any of you guys.

That all mentioned...

Wouldn't we all like to discuss about trading trend-following strategies? As much as I'm guilty of side-tracking the thread (apologies)... let's try to stick to the topic.
 
Quote from TSGannGalt:

End of story?

Those (2) depositions posted in this thread are some of the best educational insights any prospective investor could ever possibly read. They show quite clearly how a con can unfold. End of story? Doubtful. Anyone mixed up in the nonsense outlined in those government documents will most likely continue down a wrong path.
 
Quote from Trend Following:

Those (2) depositions posted in this thread are some of the best educational insights any prospective investor could ever possibly read. They show quite clearly how a con can unfold. End of story? Doubtful. Anyone mixed up in the nonsense outlined in those government documents will most likely continue down a wrong path.
Mike...

What's the title of this thread? If you want to... you can start another thread about cons in the OPM industry. If you want to stick to your depositions... then start one about that specifically.

Let's try to stick to the topic... It seems like people are more interested in reading about trading trend-following than the government papers (I was suggested to put you on ignore... but I won't).

PS. I'm not Curtis Faith or any of the Turtles. Why would I buy from Mike and Russell?
 
Quote from TSGannGalt:

What's the title of this thread?

Those documents are but one example of "people" as the real issue, not debates about "changing markets." People make decisions. Some make consistently good decisions, some bad. Think about this: Acceleration Capital will at some point in the future be a data point for some noted Ivy League academic. Faith's firm will be held out as one of the "unlucky" ones who did not make it. Acceleration Capital will be used (along with other misguided miscreants) as a basis to argue that trend following doesn't really work once you control for survivorship bias.

As far as "changing markets"... Good systems respond to changing market conditions. If one is constantly tweaking a system to supposedly meet changing market conditions...that is not much of a system.

Also, I can't help but chuckle at this busy body like tendency of yours to supposedly put the thread back on track... especially after rants about discretion and Amaranth.
 
Quote from Trend Following:

You promote a man whose firm was ripping off clients only to finally see that firm be barred by the CFTC...and you hold yourself out as a noble protector of newbies? Interesting stance.

Garner just promotes good books and products as far as I understand.
"The Turtle Way" is an outstanding book.
 
Back
Top