Do large banks and institutions use TA to profit?

Just to set the record straight--- I have been BANNED from talking about TA on this site---you have not destroyed anything. I am not ALLOWED to respond with any argument. sorry, i truly wish I could, but to prevent marketsurfer from being permanently banned, i need to abide by the rules.

with that said, you are clearly misinterpreting the context of that ancient document that you posted.

Sorry, I am not allowed to elaborate under strict orders. This post is strictly to explain why I can no longer respond, and to correct your misstatements of fact.

peace.
surf

baited and slammed lol #ownage

You are seriously backpedaling here Surf. Feel free to respond. By calling the document 'ancient' - which it isn't are you suggesting now that the large banks stopped using TA recently. lol.

Here is a quick reminder of what you said.

TA at banks purpose is to market their products. They don't make decisions from TA. It is also used to be explain market movements to the press and staff. Nothing to do with trading or position choosing.

I have given you cast iron proof that the large banks do use TA in trading decisions. Nobody here is saying they use it in all decisions. The bank traders trading off flow and market makers don't use it. In some cases they use it to frame trading ideas.

For the record I am saying 95%+ of anything said about TA on forums etc. is rubbish. The small winning minority take from the rest.

#owned

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doji's and head+shoulders patterns, probably. Although they might all just use the DBPheonix style of trading
 
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Paul Tudor Jones is a very skilled technician. He is known to have used Elliot Wave to predict the crash of 1987. I still don't have EW in my toolbox, because it is something I have not fully taken the time to understand yet. But that doesn't mean I dismiss it and laugh about it.It is simply subjective based on the chartist which I find beautiful.

And even when others laugh at me for using TA, I simply smile back =]

EW is TA's crazy sister, it's even more nuts.

But are you using actual TA rules, or your own ??
 
Ok, let s give a concrete example of a "basic" technical analysis.
This morning, I looked at SXAP which is Stoxx 600 Automobiles & Parts.
Everyone heard about VW's fall (-63%), and sector is already down -35%.
With a "basic" RSI graph, you can notice a positive divergence between price and RSI.
In term of price action, it means sellers are less strong compared to the intensity of fall.
So after being short, I am long on a short term basis.
Expected rebound : +10% / +20%.
I will again short when buying power will decrease.
Maybe I am right, maybe I am wrong, but without TA, for sure I would have done nothing.

CM

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Exactly, and for obvious reasons.

Because he gets a bit carried away, not because he's wrong!

He gets carried away cause well he's right and your all so damn stupid it just gets annoying, I can relate!

Going around and around in illogical circles, never listening cause you all think your so so so so smart, NO Smart people listen to other opinions!
 
Because he gets a bit carried away, not because he's wrong!

He gets carried away cause well he's right and your all so damn stupid it just gets annoying, I can relate!

Going around and around in illogical circles, never listening cause you all think your so so so so smart, NO Smart people listen to other opinions!

Try not to take this the wrong way. But, you don't look at any fundamentals right? Not even news announcements? And you use moving averages and momentum analysis? How is that not TA?
 
lol, that is like asking hookers how they think people on high moral grounds think and live their lives. Are you sure taking what someone posted on "quora" or "forexfactory" seriously and as a fair representation of what the investment banking and hedge fund industry does? If any of the sell side banks keep a "chief technical strategist or analyst" around then it is to keep some of their more retarded clients happy. Nobody at any of the prop desks I ever worked at has consulted or asked a "technical analyst" to share their wisdom of "Ichimoku Clouds, Death Cross (or whatever its called), moving average crossovers or any of the gibberish that is traded in the part of the retail crowd that does not know better. Does anyone though look at price action in the professional space? Sure they do. No question, but none of them care look at things some in the retail crowd looks at things. Professionals may concern themselves with changes in correlations or dispersion. By the way, I do not consider some buy/sell button pushing monkeys at execution desks professionals. They may chat all day long with their clients how the 100 day MA was over or undershot. I would venture to claim that mentioning any technical analysis piece as major rational for a larger trade at any hedge fund's or sell-side bank's prop desk gets you fired sooner than later.

Wow.

Loads of bad information here and only a few good posts.

Let's clear up the misconceptions.

Banks and institutions DO use technical analysis, but not how most here think they do..

Banks and other large financial institutions are divided into two categories, the buy-side and sell-side. The buy-side consists of hedge funds, pension funds, mutual funds, etc. The sell-side is the market makers or banks. The two have very different goals. The buy-side is profit-motivated through speculation while the sell-side is not. The sell-side is motivated in making profits through spreads or commissions, and the more volume transacted the more they make. Some sell-side traders do make speculative trades, although they rarely do this. The reason they would do it is to increase bank profits, "increase shareholder value", and mostly for fatter bonuses although if you're not achieving budget targets job security becomes another issue altogether.

Technical analysis as we retailers use it is not as widely used by large buy-side institutions like it used to be. However, some funds do still use technical concepts. Was it not Paul Tudor Jones who said trade fundamentally, but enter technically? The reason many large buy-side firms aren't using TA anymore is that they instead opt for the more profitable algorithmic and quantitative analysis techniques. Ironically, many of these types of strategies study historical price behavior and statistical patterns just as technical analysis does. Technical analysis concepts are extremely important to these types of strategies, but to quote a sentence from the below link, "admitting use of TA in public is bad for business."

https://www.quora.com/What-do-hedge-funds-think-of-technical-analysis

Therefore, we can say a form of technical analysis is being used on the buy-side, however these modeling techniques are much different than what we retailers do and that's why it has its own name AKA quantitative analysis trading.

Keep in mind there are still some funds and large individual traders using technical analysis like we do, but fundamentals and global macro play a much bigger role in their strategies. More on this below.

Next, let's talk about the sell-side. Since the sell-side isn't really motivated by profits through speculation, they don't use TA to make speculative trades. But TA still plays a role in their decision making. You will see traders using pivot points, fibs, especially support/resistance, etc., but they use it as a tool to set limit orders. They need to provide liquidity at all times and they tend to cluster limit orders at key levels because price tends to turn from there. However, they can also see their customer flow and this provides a massive edge, not to mention all the analysts giving them detailed reports on the fundamentals. If you take away their order flow edge, most of these guys could not trade for shit. Trading on the sell-side is a whole different game vs. the buy-side. The sell-side is in the business to minimize risk (and profit from spreads/commissions) while the buy-side creates risk (in order to turn a profit).

For the large market participants, fundamentals and macroeconomics plays a much bigger role. These guys don't trade every day and only look for high probability opportunities on the macro landscape. They need to make every trade count and 10% a month is an awesome result for them. They may well use TA for entries/exits and scaling purposes. This group may exclude HFT and quantitative firms who can also be large and may be getting in and out of trades super fast. Their core strategies are derived from technical analysis concepts, but with heavy math and coding. It's like technical analysis on steroids.

For those who are interested in learning more about institutions, check out this awesome thread on FF about institutional trading from actual institutional traders. Although FX based, it may open your eyes to how the institutional space differs from the retail.

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=486128
 
Try not to take this the wrong way. But, you don't look at any fundamentals right? Not even news announcements? And you use moving averages and momentum analysis? How is that not TA?

Cause it has simple logic and well works, rather than overly complicated, prediction based TA, correct I don't predict, get on the flow ( or atleast attempt ).

Basically, anything prediction based is screwed.

Markets are going up, join, markets have stalled, bail, KISS!

I'm not an accountant, I don't understand the news or the fundementals, I've tried it never goes the way I expect it, so I stopped trying.
 
lol, that is like asking hookers how they think people on high moral grounds think and live their lives. Are you sure taking what someone posted on "quora" or "forexfactory" seriously and as a fair representation of what the investment banking and hedge fund industry does? If any of the sell side banks keep a "chief technical strategist or analyst" around then it is to keep some of their more retarded clients happy. Nobody at any of the prop desks I ever worked at has consulted or asked a "technical analyst" to share their wisdom of "Ichimoku Clouds, Death Cross (or whatever its called), moving average crossovers or any of the gibberish that is traded in the part of the retail crowd that does not know better. Does anyone though look at price action in the professional space? Sure they do. No question, but none of them care look at things some in the retail crowd looks at things. Professionals may concern themselves with changes in correlations or dispersion. By the way, I do not consider some buy/sell button pushing monkeys at execution desks professionals. They may chat all day long with their clients how the 100 day MA was over or undershot. I would venture to claim that mentioning any technical analysis piece as major rational for a larger trade at any hedge fund's or sell-side bank's prop desk gets you fired sooner than later.


Hmmm Hookers, firstly!! :)

If your selling a trade to a client, then your going to be talking about fundementals and likely hinting but never saying that your aware of something they aren't :)

They get there commision for placing the order.

Most of the time, the Stock they've invested in with chop around, it'll get to a profit point at some stage and they'll advise selling it, the client is happy, the commisions are paid and happy days.

Unless, you sold someone on going long VW then maybe not for a long long time.
 
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