Do "famous" discretionary individual traders (really) make money consistently?

Z

zazzi1

We believe that pretty much everyone selling courses/books online doesn't make money consistently.

Does this include "prominent" traders online such as Dan Zanger, Mark Minervini (who was included in Market Wizards) and Jesse Stine, Tim Sykes.

These individuals have mostly:

a) shown evidence of an excellent track record over some short period (regardless of whether you think they are a fraud or not, which is probably irrelevant anyway)

b) published books (with decent publishers) claiming to show how they make money (all discretionary, by manually picking entries and exits and STOPS on charts on "earnings Winners", which looks so simple in hindsight when you look at the handpicked charts in the books).

If they are still successful, why don't they share their track record for, say 3 years (surely it only proves their case) or go work for a hedge/prop fund and make millions?

And if they aren't actually making money, does anyone make (and then keep) money (other than someone who is just buying a trending position for the long term) (consistently) by manually picking entries/exists?

Now, the question here isn't whether discretionary traders at prop firms don't make money, but whether these individual mavericks ever do (other than the 2 year streak they had 20 years ago which they still market to lure subscribers)?
 
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For some the reason for not working for a hedge fund is simply that the strategies they have don't scale at all. What HF would hire someone earning say $3mm for the fund but asking for a $4mm salary?

I'm also not sure what difference is there between an individual maverick and someone at a prop firm unless the prop offers some insanely advanced tools that give edge. I don't think most do. Leverage, perhaps. Now if you meant book authors by "individual mavericks", I tend to agree. Most likely they were successful at one time but that faded, they just found a way to milk a bit more with books and seminars.
 
zazzi1 said:
We believe that pretty much everyone selling courses/books online doesn't make money consistently.

Does this include "prominent" traders online such as Dan Zanger, Mark Minervini (who was included in Market Wizards) and Jesse Stine, Tim Sykes.

These individuals have mostly:

a) shown evidence of an excellent track record over some short period (regardless of whether you think they are a fraud or not, which is probably irrelevant anyway)

b) published books (with decent publishers) claiming to show how they make money (all discretionary, by manually picking entries and exits and STOPS on charts on "earnings Winners", which looks so simple in hindsight when you look at the handpicked charts in the books).

If they are still successful, why don't they share their track record for, say 3 years (surely it only proves their case) or go work for a hedge/prop fund and make millions?

And if they aren't actually making money, does anyone make (and then keep) money (other than someone who is just buying a trending position for the long term) (consistently) by manually picking entries/exists?

Now, the question here isn't whether discretionary traders at prop firms don't make money, but whether these individual mavericks ever do (other than the 2 year streak they had 20 years ago which they still market to lure subscribers)?
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Yes;
i say so. Tim Sykes anyway; he made enough in 5-7 years+ most likely stopped doing stupid stuff like loan ing/co-sign ing a bank loan to a penny stock CO =several times .LOL-LOL So 5-7 years is enough to learn /earn NO disrespect intended.
Like Do8 said, its not scaleable; by both of thier admissions.
[I considered buying both Mr Minervi /Sykes paper books; did not on former+did on the latter even though T Sykes allowed a free download .]

Its like i bought 20 0r 21 properties with out title insurance because the above average /helpful/mentor REALTOR, who lived in the area all his life, said he never buys title insurance on investment property.I looked @ him like he was insane LOL Then he said ''you may want to on your personal residence.'' Amen.

So could i buy RE without title insurance NOW?? YES, but i would NOT-too much risk, even i paid cash + besides most all or all banks require it for financing.IF i had lost on bad title on 1st property, i may have had to sue the REALTOR + not do it again. IF i wanted to trade penny stocks in college i may now pay T Sykes for his stock picks, but i dont.
 
zazzi1 said:
We believe that pretty much everyone selling courses/books online doesn't make money consistently.

Does this include "prominent" traders online such as Dan Zanger, Mark Minervini (who was included in Market Wizards) and Jesse Stine, Tim Sykes.

These individuals have mostly:

a) shown evidence of an excellent track record over some short period (regardless of whether you think they are a fraud or not, which is probably irrelevant anyway)

b) published books (with decent publishers) claiming to show how they make money (all discretionary, by manually picking entries and exits and STOPS on charts on "earnings Winners", which looks so simple in hindsight when you look at the handpicked charts in the books).

If they are still successful, why don't they share their track record for, say 3 years (surely it only proves their case) or go work for a hedge/prop fund and make millions?

And if they aren't actually making money, does anyone make (and then keep) money (other than someone who is just buying a trending position for the long term) (consistently) by manually picking entries/exists?

Now, the question here isn't whether discretionary traders at prop firms don't make money, but whether these individual mavericks ever do (other than the 2 year streak they had 20 years ago which they still market to lure subscribers)?
More...

You got them mixed up a little with your hedge fund analysis. I believe Mark Minervini worked for a hedge fund or consulted hedge funds for a hefty price and had competed very successfully in an audited high level trading competition. Tim Sykes is penny stock trader...I've never heard of a hedge fund that deals with penny stocks because I believe they are prohibited from trading penny stocks except those that crawl under the radar.

Also, as others noted...there's a scaling issue...wouldn't work at hedge funds.

Not sure about the prop fund thing...it doesn't seem like it will be suitable alternative for these people you mention.

https://www.thebalance.com/day-trading-jobs-working-at-a-proprietary-trading-firm-1031233

A lot of threads here about the pros/cons of working for a proprietary trading firm.

wrbtrader
 
Thanks - about Mark Minervini, yes, winning that competition is kind of like others showing their audited results/track record for a 2 year period.

All well noted about not working for hedge/prop firms.

But what would be the justification for none of these people sharing track record when their marketing their "great trading abilities" - in which business would a seller be able to sell things without any demonstration of quality?
 
Aren't Zanger and Minervini selling buying medium term trends in liquid stocks? Not sure why that wouldn't scale up.
 
The point still being, why are they not able to share evidence of their returns since they're selling a service promising to make you returns?
 
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