Dividend mining

Quote from black diamond:

The drop should be less than the value of the dividend in normal cases, or else there would be a tax advantage for long term investors to sell just before the dividend and buy back after.
Interesting but even if the stock did trade the next day down by the full amount of the dividend and not some percentage of it, I doubt long-term investors would go through the trouble of selling and re-purchasing their stocks to avoid the dividend. The commission cost and the extra trouble it would cause at tax time would not be worth it.

Whenever I've tried dividend capture plays I've always done so in my SEP IRA account so I didn't have to worry about tax consequences.
 
Quote from black diamond:

You are getting hung up on semantics here. Replace the word arb with pseudo-arb if you want and see if you still object. I think you know that a "true" textbook arb is rare or non-existent, there almost always at least some execution risk. The word arb is commonly used loosely to mean a trade with an disproportionate expected return for the risk, and I am not going to write a disclaimer every time I use it!

...

I can short an index future to hedge some of the price risk. You are right that it is not no-risk but you would "normally" have to hold price risk much longer for that level of expected return.
I'm hung up on semantics when you're suggesting pseudo-arb be substituted for arbitrage? LOL.

How do you know that a "true" textbook arb is rare or non-existent? Have a source? I don't know that at all. I do know that there are different kinds of arbitrage and in the option arena where I have some familiarity, they occur every day (conversions and reversals). I've even found some myself and I'm just a lowly retail trader :)

As for execution risk, that has as much to do with your proposed dividend/tax arbitrage is as commissions do.

And as for shorting an index future to hedge some of the price risk, you're confusing hedging with arbitrage (minimizing the risk versus risk free). Or have we just mutated to another topic?
 
Quote from GTS:

I always cringe when I read something like this although for the most part I agree with it, it still rubs me the wrong way.

I'm talking about the statement that the stock price is reduced by the dividend amount. Stock prices are set by supply and demand. They may adjust the closing price to reflect the dividend paid but when the stock opens its price is set by the market.

In a perfectly efficient market, the stock would open/trade exactly lower by the dividend amount versus where it otherwise would have opened but because prices are determined by imperfect humans that may not always be the case.

Excellent post! Few people understand that stocks have a commodity side most of the time.
 
Quote from black diamond:

You are getting hung up on semantics here. Replace the word arb with pseudo-arb if you want and see if you still object. I think you know that a "true" textbook arb is rare or non-existent, there almost always at least some execution risk. The word arb is commonly used loosely to mean a trade with an disproportionate expected return for the risk, and I am not going to write a disclaimer every time I use it! But maybe free money was a strong phrase, I'll give you that one.

That aside, the fact is if they :) price in a drop based on their tax status and your tax status is different there can be a very attractive trade.

The drop should be less than the value of the dividend in normal cases, or else there would be a tax advantage for long term investors to sell just before the dividend and buy back after. So for example, say the market prices an ex-dividend drop of 80% of the value of the dividend. If I pay no taxes on dividends, I can buy the stock just before it goes ex-div and sell right after, and keep 20% of the value of the dividend in expectation while being exposed to price risk for a very short time. I can short an index future to hedge some of the price risk. You are right that it is not no-risk but you would "normally" have to hold price risk much longer for that level of expected return.

Corporate investors used to have very low taxes on dividends, no taxes in some cases, and they put a lot of money into dividend capture strats until the tax laws changed in the 1980s. I'd be surprised if there not similar opportunities in at least some small niches out there now.

Do not waste your time with him. He does not understand the thoughts in your posts. You have shown that if the drop were to take place as he thinks, they were be an edge. He did not get it.
 
Riskfreetrading, despite all the mocking of your ridiculous ideas and double talk by so many ET posters, it's good to see you crawl from under your rock and carp at others. I've missed you!

I really like it when you simultaneously start different chains, one saying go short and another saying go long and then when one of them succeeds, claiming analysis ability.

You're my internet troll hero !
(swoon)
 
while you girls are fondling each other,m $$$$$ is being made capturing dividends.

you know, the old joke, if there's a $100 bill on the floor don't bother to pick it up, if it was really there, it would already have been taken.
Usdollar100front.jpg
 
Quote from GTS:

Interesting but even if the stock did trade the next day down by the full amount of the dividend and not some percentage of it, I doubt long-term investors would go through the trouble of selling and re-purchasing their stocks to avoid the dividend. The commission cost and the extra trouble it would cause at tax time would not be worth it.

Whenever I've tried dividend capture plays I've always done so in my SEP IRA account so I didn't have to worry about tax consequences.

I think you would be right talking about Mom & Pop investors, but for institutions the decision is different. Low trading costs, very low marginal tax prep costs for another couple of trades, offset by a large dollar amount the tax savings would apply to.
 
Quote from spindr0:

I'm hung up on semantics when you're suggesting pseudo-arb be substituted for arbitrage? LOL.

How do you know that a "true" textbook arb is rare or non-existent? Have a source? I don't know that at all. I do know that there are different kinds of arbitrage and in the option arena where I have some familiarity, they occur every day (conversions and reversals). I've even found some myself and I'm just a lowly retail trader :)

As for execution risk, that has as much to do with your proposed dividend/tax arbitrage is as commissions do.

And as for shorting an index future to hedge some of the price risk, you're confusing hedging with arbitrage (minimizing the risk versus risk free). Or have we just mutated to another topic?

You are right! And I suggest you complain to the managers of all merger arb funds, stat arb funds, vol arb funds, risk arb funds, etc. about their false advertising, that is an outrage that should not be allowed to continue.

So for the true no-risk arb trades you do, are you really guaranteed to get all legs filled simultaneously with no chance of getting hung out there if a connection goes down or a big trade beats you in on one side? Do you always use european options instead of americans when the PCP no-arb relationships call for them? If so I am impressed (at least if you do this with any meaningful size as a retail trader), but if not then small risk is not no-risk, I call psuedo-arb on you! LOL!

Finally I disagree that execution risk is a big part of the dividend capture strategy, at least compared to the options strats you mention - your second leg can be in a very liquid index futures contract. BTW it is not MY div/tax arb strategy, I don't trade it and dividend capture is about as much of a secret as the yen carry trade.
 
Quote from riskfreetrading:

Do not waste your time with him. He does not understand the thoughts in your posts. You have shown that if the drop were to take place as he thinks, they were be an edge. He did not get it.

Thanks for the compliment but right now arguing with him is a nice break from the work I should be doing!
 
Quote from black diamond:

Thanks for the compliment but right now arguing with him is a nice break from the work I should be doing!
:p

PS: i like reading what you write. you are thoughtful.
 
Back
Top