Yep. This is why leverage was 'invented' - to grease the rails for stupid money to feed wall street.
Disillusioned
- Thread starter BertH
- Start date
Yep. This is why leverage was 'invented' - to grease the rails for stupid money to feed wall street.
"In other word, the market doesn't exist for money to be made by non professional traders, it exists only for them to pay to play."
That makes total sense, just like with gambling. However, my feeling is there should be way(s) to become consistently and highly profitable if you're good enough. I realize most probably won't be, but seems there would be a few--besides the house--that makes good money. Is it a matter of chance that you'll have some big winners, or is it due to legit skill?
I know several would argue the latter is true, stating that random chance can't result in the kind of consistent and large success some traders have had.
I'm not sure I'd ever be one of that group, as the odds are long. Yet, I don't think success needs to be categorized by making millions. A good salary to meet most needs would seem to be enough for the vast majority.
That makes total sense, just like with gambling. However, my feeling is there should be way(s) to become consistently and highly profitable if you're good enough. I realize most probably won't be, but seems there would be a few--besides the house--that makes good money. Is it a matter of chance that you'll have some big winners, or is it due to legit skill?
I know several would argue the latter is true, stating that random chance can't result in the kind of consistent and large success some traders have had.
I'm not sure I'd ever be one of that group, as the odds are long. Yet, I don't think success needs to be categorized by making millions. A good salary to meet most needs would seem to be enough for the vast majority.
Daytrading is one of those things where by the time you can do it you no longer want to do it.
Secondly pros pay for BBG/CQG/TT/Leased line for a reason. trying to keep retail chart package/Broker platform/ADSL at peak performance is a nightmare, made worse by the BS/attitudes of some retail vendors. This grinds me down over the long run far more than any losses. With cash equities I could almost go down to an internet cafe once a day just to check up on things - not really viable for futures
Whoever said trading profitably and trading for a living are not the same things (on these boards) was spot on. To trade for a living you have to be a lot better capitalised than most are and be able to make money in the two years a market is not trending, not just the one when it does. Sure, there is always a bull market somewhere, but to make money in a market you don't know it has to be a super bull market - as were Nikkei, gold, copper and oil until they weren't
Does anybody look at this like a business? e.g if you have USD20,000 in your account and you pay USD100/M for charts and USD100/M for other sundries and you actually make 15% a year that leaves you with 3% of 20,000 to live on.........................
Secondly pros pay for BBG/CQG/TT/Leased line for a reason. trying to keep retail chart package/Broker platform/ADSL at peak performance is a nightmare, made worse by the BS/attitudes of some retail vendors. This grinds me down over the long run far more than any losses. With cash equities I could almost go down to an internet cafe once a day just to check up on things - not really viable for futures
Whoever said trading profitably and trading for a living are not the same things (on these boards) was spot on. To trade for a living you have to be a lot better capitalised than most are and be able to make money in the two years a market is not trending, not just the one when it does. Sure, there is always a bull market somewhere, but to make money in a market you don't know it has to be a super bull market - as were Nikkei, gold, copper and oil until they weren't
Does anybody look at this like a business? e.g if you have USD20,000 in your account and you pay USD100/M for charts and USD100/M for other sundries and you actually make 15% a year that leaves you with 3% of 20,000 to live on.........................
I'm one of those who probably would/should have given up years ago, had I not started when I did and gotten very lucky for a few years bubble trading. But although my temporary good fortune was the only way I could have lasted this long in finally figuring out the right way to trade for myself, I can't help but think that the early success was also a big factor in why my subsequent re-education took as long as it did.
It's hard enough to figure out a way to make money in this game; it's doubly hard to unlearn/throw out/start over after achieving some level of perceived success. I doubt anyone who has his first seven-figure year can just stop cold in the realization the game has changed, and that what one has achieved may have just been an anomaly -- the ego just works so hard against facing the truth in that situation, it will impede your progress until you are humbled once again, as far and as long as it takes.
All I can advise is this: learn to trade for the long run, if that's the career you are determined to have. Build a base of proper trading principles that will hold for as long as you trade, whatever you are trading. From this base look for what's working now, but always keep one eye a few steps ahead. If you really understand what it is that is making money in the present, you should be able to anticipate how that edge will eventually unwind and transform into something else. Whatever you do, embrace change as soon as you can, make it your partner, and time will be on your side.
It's hard enough to figure out a way to make money in this game; it's doubly hard to unlearn/throw out/start over after achieving some level of perceived success. I doubt anyone who has his first seven-figure year can just stop cold in the realization the game has changed, and that what one has achieved may have just been an anomaly -- the ego just works so hard against facing the truth in that situation, it will impede your progress until you are humbled once again, as far and as long as it takes.
All I can advise is this: learn to trade for the long run, if that's the career you are determined to have. Build a base of proper trading principles that will hold for as long as you trade, whatever you are trading. From this base look for what's working now, but always keep one eye a few steps ahead. If you really understand what it is that is making money in the present, you should be able to anticipate how that edge will eventually unwind and transform into something else. Whatever you do, embrace change as soon as you can, make it your partner, and time will be on your side.
'preciate both of your frankness on this. I am taking it all in, one post at a time. Am in a very reflective mode (and certainly not trading right now).
Question: supposedly, Wiliam O'Neil has done extremely well over a very long period of time, and now learned to short stocks instead of always waiting to go long. I can only assume that's helped his own trading. Is his system really that successful? I've read one of his books a long while back, but have gotten a wide variety of views about his CANSLIM system's results from traders.
It seems like most everything else---all about who you talk to.
here's an article I just read regarding simple trend following, though I'm sure what constitutes trend-following varies from person-to-person and time frames.
http://www.investmentu.com/IUEL/2003/20031021.html
Question: supposedly, Wiliam O'Neil has done extremely well over a very long period of time, and now learned to short stocks instead of always waiting to go long. I can only assume that's helped his own trading. Is his system really that successful? I've read one of his books a long while back, but have gotten a wide variety of views about his CANSLIM system's results from traders.
It seems like most everything else---all about who you talk to.
here's an article I just read regarding simple trend following, though I'm sure what constitutes trend-following varies from person-to-person and time frames.
http://www.investmentu.com/IUEL/2003/20031021.html
Quote from BertH:
'preciate both of your frankness on this. I am taking it all in, one post at a time. Am in a very reflective mode (and certainly not trading right now).
Question: supposedly, Wiliam O'Neil has done extremely well over a very long period of time, and now learned to short stocks instead of always waiting to go long. I can only assume that's helped his own trading. Is his system really that simple? I've read one of his books a long while back, but have gotten a wide variety of views about his CANSLIM system's results from traders.
It seems like most everything else---all about who you talk to.
Canslim (and the down version that Mark Boucher had a course on on trading markets) is a valid and effective way of making money. So are many others.
The reason I think we get so many opinions is: 1) sometimes a system doesn't suit a given traders underlying beliefs so they can't trade it properly and make money; and 2) sometimes a trader runs into something at the wrong time in their growth and nothing they did could make money.
Your comments contrast those from a lot of other posters in that you are confident there are truly good systems but not everyone has the temperament or the timing for following them profitably.
It seems then it's just a matter of time before many traders would find a really successful system suited to their personalities and such if they continue pursuing.
It seems then it's just a matter of time before many traders would find a really successful system suited to their personalities and such if they continue pursuing.
Illiquid's post shows great insight. An Edge in a system requires maintenance and awareness. Understanding of why it exists, what market(s) it is best suited for, what about it can change, and anticipating and preparing for those potential changes that will inevitably occur are the key to longevity.
A base of proper principles will keep you grounded while your style shifts with the market.
Bert - you continue to dream about riches but clearly do not have the focus or tenacity required to succeed in the trading arena. Nothing to be ashamed of but divert you energies to finding a well paid job or study to obtain a well paid job and save a few dollars for hobby trading to get the bug out of your system.