Deltra neutral question

[MTE]

Quote from nravo:

Ok, we've mentioned bull put credit spread and an iron condor. But what I was really inquiring about was is there a way to get gamma neutral with a put writing strategy using futures rather than just off-setting options or heding a naked put by buying a further OTM call.

No, there's no way to hedge gamma with futures as they don't have a gamma.

 

[nravo]

Quote from MTE:

No, there's no way to hedge gamma with futures as they don't have a gamma.

Futures lack delta, too. But that doesn't stop people like Ansbacher from proclaiming deltra neutrality by shorting puts and futures.

 

[asap]

Quote from nravo:

Futures lack delta, too. But that doesn't stop people like Ansbacher from proclaiming deltra neutrality by shorting puts and futures.

futures carry all times a 100 delta. that's why he claims delta neutrality.

however gamma produces deltas and that's the potential problem with that kind of setups. in addition, you're also vulnerable to vega risks.

both of these, gamma and vega, have to be hedged with options, while delta might be hedged with the future or the underlying.

 

[Profitaker]

Trading DN is not a profitable strategy over the long run, unless you happen to be a broker

 

[volatilitypimp]

Quote from Profitaker:

Trading DN is not a profitable strategy over the long run, unless you happen to be a broker

....or a MM

 

[nravo]

Thanks much for the info and quick explanations.

 

[xflat2186]

There are a few problems in trying to hedge far out of the money puts on the SnP500. for the purposes of this question lets assume you trade options on the SPX index and use the future as the hedge, since that’s what’s used at the hedge in the real world.

The problem with the puts is that because of the volatility skew you run into a situation where the puts values will vastly outperform their delta on bigger down side moves. Implied volatility naturally goes up as the index falls and not only does the negative gamma from the short put position kick in it will exceed its calculated delta due to that implied volatility pop. There is also another problem you’ll encounter, if the market experiences the kinds of moves we’ve seen over the last month the markets in the puts will be VERY wide and difficult to trade, even if you’re a small retail customer.

So this begs the question why not sell a spread rather then a naked put. In straight equity options that’s usually always a better idea then the naked put but its not really viable option in SPX options. There are so many strikes that the delta of each strike is very similar to the surrounding strikes and thus the values are similar. The bigger issue is that when the values are so close for the surrounding strikes and the markets are fairly wide the spread prices are tiny. Of course you could spread with much further out strikes but then it becomes and issue risk reward. Is it worth selling a 30 dollar wide spread for a buck over 30 days? That’s roughly a 2% wide spread.

If you delta hedge purely with the futures you’re subject to big risks on the upside and worse you’re likely to be ‘whip sawed” by being forced to buy back futures in rallies’ and sell them when the markets fall.

It’s no easy task on the call side either for a different set of reasons. Options on the SnP are really geared towards institutions.

 

[nravo]

Quote from xflat2186:

There are a few problems in trying to hedge far out of the money puts on the SnP500. for the purposes of this question lets assume you trade options on the SPX index and use the future as the hedge, since that’s what’s used at the hedge in the real world.

The problem with the puts is that because of the volatility skew you run into a situation where the puts values will vastly outperform their delta on bigger down side moves. Implied volatility naturally goes up as the index falls and not only does the negative gamma from the short put position kick in it will exceed its calculated delta due to that implied volatility pop. There is also another problem you’ll encounter, if the market experiences the kinds of moves we’ve seen over the last month the markets in the puts will be VERY wide and difficult to trade, even if you’re a small retail customer.

So this begs the question why not sell a spread rather then a naked put. In straight equity options that’s usually always a better idea then the naked put but its not really viable option in SPX options. There are so many strikes that the delta of each strike is very similar to the surrounding strikes and thus the values are similar. The bigger issue is that when the values are so close for the surrounding strikes and the markets are fairly wide the spread prices are tiny. Of course you could spread with much further out strikes but then it becomes and issue risk reward. Is it worth selling a 30 dollar wide spread for a buck over 30 days? That’s roughly a 2% wide spread.

If you delta hedge purely with the futures you’re subject to big risks on the upside and worse you’re likely to be ‘whip sawed” by being forced to buy back futures in rallies’ and sell them when the markets fall.

It’s no easy task on the call side either for a different set of reasons. Options on the SnP are really geared towards institutions. [/QUOTE

Two points: You're talking index options or options on futures? How can an esteemed money manager market a put selling hedged with futures strategy?

 

[xflat2186]

I think that manager can market anything he likes, but making it profitable is another story.

There is a lot of action on the SPX puts vs VIX call strategies these days but selling puts and managing them with futures is essentially trading the futures and trying to make a little extra by taking in some premium on the puts.

The options on the cash should be essentially the same as the options on the future in terms of volatility skew and the issues I mentioned. There are some subtle differences.