the epochtimes was started by cultists; and not your kind. Beware of false prophets.
weird, I seem to recall your position being "natural antibody levels too low, not there, subpar, not equivalent to our holy vax."
Delta spread directly due to unvaccinated people
- Thread starter gwb-trading
- Start date
I have posted my thoughts on using "natural anti-body immunity" as a "vaccine passport" with regular testing multiple times over the recent months.
Go take a look at -
https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/latest-vaccine-news.343809/page-162#post-5458329
The issue with "natural antibody immunity" is that nearly 40% of people never develop antibody immunity after infection and in others the antibody immunity wanes over time (especially in those with non-severe infections). The waning over time should not be surprised because we are seeing the same thing in the first generation of vaccines which leads to the need for boosters. However it should be noted vaccines provide initial anti-bodies being present in 100% of people who are vaccinated (rather than the mere 60% in the those who get infected).
the pivot did not go unnoticed.
Pivot? Explain your claim of Pivot.
Certainly I stated many times to jem --- the realities like "T-cell immunity" does not exist (only T-Cell response does) -- while jem asserted nonsense that someone could have no Covid antibodies but would not get re-infected due to "T-Cell immunity" (which is completely false) --- along with many absurd anti-vaxxer claims made by jem and his buddies as they pushed the "Great Barrington Declaration", "natural herd immunity" (which would cause a huge number of deaths and misery for no purpose), and endless fabrications about vaccines & medications which serve no purpose.
In regards to "natural antibody immunity' it is only in mid-2021 we had mainstream peer-reviewed studies from respected sources showing how long natural anti-body immunity from infection lasts. Prior this -- any information was merely speculation. And the studies have demonstrated that nearly 40% of those infected don't get any natural anti-body immunity whatsoever plus it wanes in others -- hence the need for regularly anti-body level testing if any country desires to use anti-body immunity from infection as a Covid passport basis -- rather than only vaccination.
There is no pivot -- for a lengthy period of time I have stated the facts and reality over and over and over again --- for the Covid-denier anti-vaxxer idiots who were overrunning this forum with complete misinformation. Misinformation I will mention that is leading the the misery and deaths of tens of thousand of people.
If you haven't figured it out by now -- I take this Covid misinformation situation quite personally -- it has brought over a year of misery to my family members who work in the medical field, and caused unnecessary deaths among my friends. The fabrications being spread across the internet from anti-vaxxer Covid-deniers are serving to prolong the pandemic and cause additional misery & deaths.
You've ranted and raved how natural immunity is insufficient and only herd immunity is possible through vaccination. I'd argue the same just by the sheer number that one must approach to get there but you left no "opening" in the past for testing immunity on those that healed as being counted towards the "herd":
https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/covid-19.341849/page-139#post-5351906
also other gems that appeared to indicate your belief that re-infection was proof positive that immunity was insufficient before we knew breakout cases would be prevalent amongst the vaccinated:
https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/covid-19.341849/page-139#post-5351926
https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/covid-19.341849/page-139#post-5351938
So in support of your claim you post three links of mine:
- The first is an article and study stating Nearly 40% of people who had COVID do not develop sufficient anti-bodies to stop them from catching COVID a second time within 6 months. At this point there are multiple peer-reviewed studies showing this -- including studies by the CDC.
- The second following up with a statement that vaccinated anti-bodies are showing up at 20 times the level of natural anti-bodies in some studies.
- The third where you are demanding a citation of something that is already established regarding anti-body immunity being superior in the vaccinated for most diseases -- which is the very foundation of why vaccination works to cause herd immunity -- it allows society to get above the 50% level needed for herd immunity. Something that was established from the early measles research in Maryland regarding immunity -- and the basis of the concept of reaching herd immunity through vaccination. Once again there are decades of research regarding vaccines and immunology establishing the foundation of the science behind it all -- at this point it is well understood y scientists.
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None of that is in dispute. To the ordinary reader who's followed your posts, you've pivoted on the persistence of naturally occurring antibodies and using them as sufficient enough to reach herd immunity (coupled w/vaccination efforts) is all.
And let's discuss -- once again -- in-depth why Covid vaccines are much better than "natural immunity". It's time to drive the points home.
No, your antibodies are not better than vaccination: An explainer
Infection does offer some immune protection—but it's unreliable compared with vaccines.
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...tion-why-everyone-should-get-a-covid-19-shot/
No, your antibodies are not better than vaccination: An explainer
Infection does offer some immune protection—but it's unreliable compared with vaccines.
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...tion-why-everyone-should-get-a-covid-19-shot/
Vaccinated People May Be Even Less Likely to Transmit COVID-19 Than Previously Thought
https://www.healthline.com/health-n...-to-transmit-covid-19-than-previously-thought
Experts say that they have looked at multiple studies on vaccinated people who’ve developed COVID-19 and have come to the conclusion that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) guidance on transmission from breakthrough cases may have been overstated.
That’s not because the CDC got it wrong, they add. Rather, the information is evolving as more people are vaccinated and studied.
Could this mean a change in safety protocols such as mask mandates?
Possibly, experts say. But not right away.
“People want a final word, a guarantee,” Ross Kedl, PhD, an immunologist at the University of Colorado School of Medicine, told Healthline.
“I’m sorry, but there are not any. But,” he added, “we do know what’s likely.”
What Kedl does see is definitive proof that the vaccinated who have the infection pass along much less virus than the unvaccinated.
Kedl began looking closely at the data around the topic before vaccines were approved. As a volunteer for Moderna’s phase 3 vaccine trial, he decided one day to swab his nose to see what he could learn.
It stunned him.
“I could not believe the amount of antibody,” he said.
Kedl explained that there’s “a bit of a sliding scale,” depending on a person’s medical background, their age, and the time since their vaccine.
However, he noted that his nasal swab showed him that while a vaccinated person with a breakthrough infection may have a high viral load in their nasal passageways, that viral load is diminished via the vaccine impact.
“What is abundantly clear is it’s less likely that a vaccinated person who is infected is going to pass this on,” he said. “Nobody wonders if this will be the case. The details are what we need to know.”
There are studies to back up Kedl’s assertions, including one on healthcare workers.
How and why
Kedl said the public needs to understand that infectious disease experts are far from muddling through all this and making changes willy-nilly.
Instead, he said, the public needs to know that decades — even centuries — of research have gone into this.
“People think we’re groping in the dark; seeing things we’ve never seen,” he said. “But we have years of concrete research. How did we get here? An appreciation of the last 150 years of vaccine study.”
Some things scientists knew included how and why vaccines work.
There’s also the impact of vaccines. Their purpose is, first, to save lives. Second, to cut down the impact of the virus on the person. And third, to eventually stall or stop the spread.
Scientists have also long known two things that play a role here: That the more immunity you have, the less the spread, and as immunity wanes, you do begin to spread more virus again.
In simple terms, the COVID-19 vaccine, Kedl said, works by coating the coronavirus with an antibody.
Kedl said that this information could be useful in establishing safety protocols.
“Is it meaningful enough to not, say, mask up if half the time you cannot spread it?” he asked. “I’d say no.”
But, he said, if your chances of spread are diminished to 10 percent, “which is my guess,” then perhaps strict precautions aren’t warranted.
Kedl said the fast wane in immunity we are seeing (and call for boosters) comes from the quickness in which the first two doses were given, something he said was necessary at the time because of the urgency to slow down hospitalizations and deaths.
Vaccines that are more spaced out last longer, he said. That’s why he expects everyone to end up needing boosters followed by a “flattening out” pattern,
“Once we have that, we should have increased freedom again,” he said.
“The data is already there,” he added, “for both the delta and original [variants]. It’s not a question of if it is true. It’s a question of what are we going to do with this?”
“The data accumulating shows that you can spread [the coronavirus after being vaccinated], no doubt,” Dr. William Schaffner, an infectious disease specialist at Vanderbilt University in Tennessee, told Healthline, “but less so and for a shorter time.”
Schaffner said that while we need to proceed with caution, the research gives him great hope.
“This really will result in less circulation of the virus among us,” he said, “pushing the virus down so it smolders rather than rages like a fire.”
https://www.healthline.com/health-n...-to-transmit-covid-19-than-previously-thought
- Some experts say that vaccinated people may be even less likely to transmit COVID-19 than previously thought.
- That may be due to the viral load in a vaccinated person’s nasal passage as well as the way COVID-19 vaccines attack the coronavirus.
- This information may be useful when determining safety protocols such as mask mandates.
Experts say that they have looked at multiple studies on vaccinated people who’ve developed COVID-19 and have come to the conclusion that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) guidance on transmission from breakthrough cases may have been overstated.
That’s not because the CDC got it wrong, they add. Rather, the information is evolving as more people are vaccinated and studied.
Could this mean a change in safety protocols such as mask mandates?
Possibly, experts say. But not right away.
“People want a final word, a guarantee,” Ross Kedl, PhD, an immunologist at the University of Colorado School of Medicine, told Healthline.
“I’m sorry, but there are not any. But,” he added, “we do know what’s likely.”
What Kedl does see is definitive proof that the vaccinated who have the infection pass along much less virus than the unvaccinated.
Kedl began looking closely at the data around the topic before vaccines were approved. As a volunteer for Moderna’s phase 3 vaccine trial, he decided one day to swab his nose to see what he could learn.
It stunned him.
“I could not believe the amount of antibody,” he said.
Kedl explained that there’s “a bit of a sliding scale,” depending on a person’s medical background, their age, and the time since their vaccine.
However, he noted that his nasal swab showed him that while a vaccinated person with a breakthrough infection may have a high viral load in their nasal passageways, that viral load is diminished via the vaccine impact.
“What is abundantly clear is it’s less likely that a vaccinated person who is infected is going to pass this on,” he said. “Nobody wonders if this will be the case. The details are what we need to know.”
There are studies to back up Kedl’s assertions, including one on healthcare workers.
How and why
Kedl said the public needs to understand that infectious disease experts are far from muddling through all this and making changes willy-nilly.
Instead, he said, the public needs to know that decades — even centuries — of research have gone into this.
“People think we’re groping in the dark; seeing things we’ve never seen,” he said. “But we have years of concrete research. How did we get here? An appreciation of the last 150 years of vaccine study.”
Some things scientists knew included how and why vaccines work.
There’s also the impact of vaccines. Their purpose is, first, to save lives. Second, to cut down the impact of the virus on the person. And third, to eventually stall or stop the spread.
Scientists have also long known two things that play a role here: That the more immunity you have, the less the spread, and as immunity wanes, you do begin to spread more virus again.
In simple terms, the COVID-19 vaccine, Kedl said, works by coating the coronavirus with an antibody.
Kedl said that this information could be useful in establishing safety protocols.
“Is it meaningful enough to not, say, mask up if half the time you cannot spread it?” he asked. “I’d say no.”
But, he said, if your chances of spread are diminished to 10 percent, “which is my guess,” then perhaps strict precautions aren’t warranted.
Kedl said the fast wane in immunity we are seeing (and call for boosters) comes from the quickness in which the first two doses were given, something he said was necessary at the time because of the urgency to slow down hospitalizations and deaths.
Vaccines that are more spaced out last longer, he said. That’s why he expects everyone to end up needing boosters followed by a “flattening out” pattern,
“Once we have that, we should have increased freedom again,” he said.
“The data is already there,” he added, “for both the delta and original [variants]. It’s not a question of if it is true. It’s a question of what are we going to do with this?”
“The data accumulating shows that you can spread [the coronavirus after being vaccinated], no doubt,” Dr. William Schaffner, an infectious disease specialist at Vanderbilt University in Tennessee, told Healthline, “but less so and for a shorter time.”
Schaffner said that while we need to proceed with caution, the research gives him great hope.
“This really will result in less circulation of the virus among us,” he said, “pushing the virus down so it smolders rather than rages like a fire.”
Are we back to "the vaxxed don't need to be masked"?